HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Europe

Notices and Announcements

Europe Issues of modern Europe.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #136  
Old 04 Oct 17, 08:33
Daemon of Decay's Avatar
Daemon of Decay Daemon of Decay is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Sinc
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: @ThatDerekFellow
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Drying out the home in Texas
Posts: 25,262
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
And this is imho the essence of the issue - what good is a nation state if you have to beat the population into being citizens ?

Strike some political deal and be done with it.

Have a Spanish federation of republics/regions/provinces/whatever under a common King - for instance ?
The idea of the nation state dies hard - especially when thinks like a cultural or ethnic identity are decried as fake or demonized by one or both sides. People are still addicted to the idea of preserving lines on a map.
__________________
Do you like my car?
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 04 Oct 17, 08:34
Surrey's Avatar
Surrey Surrey is offline
General of the Forums
UK
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 6,261
Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500]
Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
And this is imho the essence of the issue - what good is a nation state if you have to beat the population into being citizens ?

Strike some political deal and be done with it.

Have a Spanish federation of republics/regions/provinces/whatever under a common King - for instance ?
Wouldn't the obvious first step be to reverse the 2010 changes?
__________________
"To be free is better than to be unfree - always."
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 04 Oct 17, 08:37
Daemon of Decay's Avatar
Daemon of Decay Daemon of Decay is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Sinc
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: @ThatDerekFellow
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Drying out the home in Texas
Posts: 25,262
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
Wouldn't the obvious first step be to reverse the 2010 changes?
I imagine that would be seen as a failure and a retreat by Madrid. And Spain has other separatist movements to worry about - a sign of weakness could be seen as a slippery slope opening the door to more illegal votes and a greater push for autonomy - or independence.
__________________
Do you like my car?
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 04 Oct 17, 08:46
Snowygerry's Avatar
Snowygerry Snowygerry is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gent
Posts: 12,263
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
Wouldn't the obvious first step be to reverse the 2010 changes?
The obvious next step imho is the fall of the Spanish (minority) government, and new elections, followed by lengthy negotiations for state reform that to some degree address the issues of all concerned.

(which would no doubt amount to a reverse of the 2010 changes, as you say)

After all, for all practical intents and purposes it does not make 1 hoot of difference.
__________________
High The Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor - The Napoleonic Wars Campaign.

Captain Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 04 Oct 17, 08:47
Gooner's Avatar
Gooner Gooner is offline
General of the Forums
England
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Posts: 14,428
Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500]
Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500]
AIUI opinion polls were not showing 50% or more of Catalonians as being pro-independence, so if their Parliament does declare independence, what about all the pro-Spain areas?
Will they be allowed to remain part of Spain?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #141  
Old 04 Oct 17, 08:50
Surrey's Avatar
Surrey Surrey is offline
General of the Forums
UK
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 6,261
Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500]
Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
I imagine that would be seen as a failure and a retreat by Madrid. And Spain has other separatist movements to worry about - a sign of weakness could be seen as a slippery slope opening the door to more illegal votes and a greater push for autonomy - or independence.
This demonstrates the great difference between Britain with its democratic tradition and Spain which as only and seemingly incompletely emerged from autocracy and dictatorship.

In Britain when the regional Parliament in Scotland went nationalist the UK government allowed and facilitated a referendum on independence. Britain is a democracy ruled by consent. In Northern Ireland in contrast there was never a referendum as the majority population have always supported remaining in the UK - evidenced by the number of Unionist MPs.

In contrast Spain sends in paramilitary police to crush the protesters. The instincts of the Spanish government haven't changed that much since the time of Franco. He executed Catalan independence supporters, I wonder if the current PM will do the same.
__________________
"To be free is better than to be unfree - always."
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 04 Oct 17, 08:57
Snowygerry's Avatar
Snowygerry Snowygerry is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gent
Posts: 12,263
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
This demonstrates the great difference between Britain with its democratic tradition and Spain which as only and seemingly incompletely emerged from autocracy and dictatorship.

In Britain when the regional Parliament in Scotland went nationalist the UK government allowed and facilitated a referendum on independence. Britain is a democracy ruled by consent. In Northern Ireland in contrast there was never a referendum as the majority population have always supported remaining in the UK - evidenced by the number of Unionist MPs.

In contrast Spain sends in paramilitary police to crush the protesters. The instincts of the Spanish government haven't changed that much since the time of Franco. He executed Catalan independence supporters, I wonder if the current PM will do the same.
Same here, when I joined the ACG there were threads about the "end of Belgium" and Flemish independence, I'm sure VJ will remember..

Meanwhile the issue has been settled for the foreseeable future and no one outside Belgium even noticed, Spain can do the same, I'm sure, if all concerned just put aside their political ego for a moment.
__________________
High The Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor - The Napoleonic Wars Campaign.

Captain Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 04 Oct 17, 08:59
JFKvsNixon's Avatar
JFKvsNixon JFKvsNixon is offline
Major
UK
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 909
JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
AIUI opinion polls were not showing 50% or more of Catalonians as being pro-independence, so if their Parliament does declare independence, what about all the pro-Spain areas?
Will they be allowed to remain part of Spain?
I'm guessing that the pro-Spanish areas of Catalonia will suffer the same fate of those areas of the UK that voted to remain in the EU.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 04 Oct 17, 09:11
Gooner's Avatar
Gooner Gooner is offline
General of the Forums
England
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Posts: 14,428
Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500]
Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFKvsNixon View Post
I'm guessing that the pro-Spanish areas of Catalonia will suffer the same fate of those areas of the UK that voted to remain in the EU.
The difference being that one was legal though.

The Catalonian government would have no authority to prevent areas remaining Spain if they chose to AFAICS. Catalunya would be a patchwork quilt of a country.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 04 Oct 17, 09:17
Johan Banér's Avatar
Johan Banér Johan Banér is offline
General of the Forums
Sweden
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Uppsala
Posts: 6,417
Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
AIUI opinion polls were not showing 50% or more of Catalonians as being pro-independence, so if their Parliament does declare independence, what about all the pro-Spain areas?
Will they be allowed to remain part of Spain?
Sure, before the referendum and Guardia Civil the independists polled at 41% iirc.

The problem is the situation has changed in the last 72 hours. It is now a revolutionary situation in Catalonia. We have no idea how many the non-independists are NOW. Fewer, possibly a lot fewer, is a good bet though.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 04 Oct 17, 09:21
Vaeltaja's Avatar
Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
Lieutenant General
Finland
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: -
Posts: 3,544
Vaeltaja has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
The Catalan independence movement has a well-known back history for decades, has always been a peaceful centre-politics, middle-class kinda thing.

Possibly part of the problem here is perceptions about its potential for sufficient radicalization to bring it all the way to declaring independence. They've never been scary, and so might not have been taken altogether seriously.

Though if they didn't have the momentum to do that before the police crack-down on the referendum, it now seems the momentum is such they have little choice but to forge ahead and make the declaration. Which will then be very hard for Madrid to stuff back into the box. Not in the sense of controlling Catalonia by force so much, but rather getting it unsaid, when at some later point Madrid no longer has the stomach for the hard-ball stuff, at which point the Catalonian independence will be asserted.

It suggests itself that everyone in the EU need to prepare for that eventuality.

Catalonia got increased autonomy in 2006. In 2010 the PP in government unilaterally rolled that back. And then refused to even discuss the matter. Which has set up the present mess. The Catalonians had a referendum in 2014, to try to start a process. Madrid ignored it. So new they went over that option again. This time Madrid did not ignore it. Question is not just if Madrid will be asked again, but how many are now left in Catalonia willing to listen to Madrid about anything. Certainly Madrid can still just impose itself by force, but to what end?

I would predict that Catalunya is now lost to Spain, regardless of what Madrid does. The king's speech might well in retrospect come to be read as confirmation that Catalunya is already out, since that was how the implicitly spoke about them.
I agree.

The Spanish response was really bad. I mean they claimed that the referendum was illegal - well given that Catalunya had arranged such previously makes that a bit shaky argument. I understand that claiming that the referendum would be legally binding could be against the existing Spanish laws but then the Spain ought to have challenged the Catalunya's authorities via the legal route in courts - not by beating the people. The Spanish ought to have figured out by now that you can't beat people up and then expect them to love you for it.

The real problem for Spain really is that from their perspective Catalunya might catalyze more loonies to go for the same route. Basques certainly but what i have understood the list does not exactly stop there. Of course this is not limited just to Spain as such.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 04 Oct 17, 09:39
Surrey's Avatar
Surrey Surrey is offline
General of the Forums
UK
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 6,261
Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500]
Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
I agree.

The Spanish response was really bad. I mean they claimed that the referendum was illegal - well given that Catalunya had arranged such previously makes that a bit shaky argument. I understand that claiming that the referendum would be legally binding could be against the existing Spanish laws but then the Spain ought to have challenged the Catalunya's authorities via the legal route in courts - not by beating the people. The Spanish ought to have figured out by now that you can't beat people up and then expect them to love you for it.

The real problem for Spain really is that from their perspective Catalunya might catalyze more loonies to go for the same route. Basques certainly but what i have understood the list does not exactly stop there. Of course this is not limited just to Spain as such.
A quick Google indicates that c25% of Basques want independence so no an immediate issue there. However Madrid's idiotic actions in Catalonia may have increased the numbers....

Treat people like grownups and they will behave as such, treat them like naughty children and the same applies. There was no need for the violence and Madrid could have defused the situation easily if they had acted proportionately and in good time. Rajoy's actions may well have lost him a province.
__________________
"To be free is better than to be unfree - always."
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 04 Oct 17, 10:25
Gooner's Avatar
Gooner Gooner is offline
General of the Forums
England
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Posts: 14,428
Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500]
Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500] Gooner is a jewel in the rough [500]
"The reports from the hospitals in Catalonia are also putting out a statement (according to Time) that the majority of people they treated were for stress and panic attacks. Only four people were kept in hospital, two seriously and one of those was an elderly gentleman who had a heart attack and was in the crowd with no contact with the police. The other was the guy hit in the eye with a rubber bullet. The other two had serious cuts and one of them has been released. One woman who claimed the police had broken her fingers was found to have a swollen finger and admitted she had been told to rest it for 3 weeks.
43 police were treated for major cuts, lesions and bites. Another 350 police were treated for minor cuts and bruises.
The hospital said the figure of 893 was the number of people who had seen a doctor, not those injured, "

Still, any excuse for a revolution eh.
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 04 Oct 17, 12:04
von Junzt's Avatar
von Junzt von Junzt is offline
Brigadier General
Spain
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Him Who Is Not to be Named
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lost in time and space
Posts: 2,033
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
This demonstrates the great difference between Britain with its democratic tradition and Spain which as only and seemingly ncompletely emerged from autocracy and dictatorship.

Discounting your lack of knowledge and offensive remarks about Spain, you are right here partially, but not in the way you think. There has never been any democracy in Catalonia, and Basque country, where they went straight from Franco dictatorship to separatist dictatorship. The rest of Spain is free, democratic and with alternance in power, and working under the rule of law, despite the best efforts of the left to perpetuate itself in power and turn Spain into a Mexico one-party dictatorship.

This time the Catalan fascists are a threat to the whole of Spain, not just the other half of Catalans.

Quote:
n Britain when the regional Parliament in Scotland went nationalist the UK government allowed and facilitated a referendum on independence. Britain is a democracy ruled by consent. In Northern Ireland in contrast there was never a referendum as the majority population have always supported remaining in the UK - evidenced by the number of Unionist MPs.

It's rich coming from the British giving lessons in democracy, human rights and respect to minorities. You are not fooling anyone. Britain may be a democracy, but Ireland was a colony where British bayonets and British settlers oppressed the native Irish. The British were forced to reliniquish most of Ireland after not being able to put down the rebellion and only held onto the areas were the British colonists were a small majority. Northern Ireland was not democratic, it was a Protestant dictatorship through rigged elections and where Irish Catholics were treated as second class citizens. your Prime Minister Tony Blair officially acknowledged that, and the violence and Irish terrorism in Ulster and reonly ended when the British, tired of the conflict finally forced the Protestants into sharing power and ensuring free and fair elections and the human rights of the Irish Catholic. In the end, the IRA won. They didn't achieve their aim of reunification with Ireland, but forced the British and the Protestants to treat the Irish population as equals, to give up sectarian violence, and with the compromise of not preventing the Ulster joining Ireland if the majority of the population wishes so. With demographic trends and Brexit that might happen sooner.


Your British had elite paratroopers massacring peaceful protesters at the Bloody Sunday. The record on human rights violations and excesses caused by British occupation troops and Protestant police in Ulster, and British police and security services is appalling.

If we compared the British response to Irish violence to the Spanish response to Basque separatists during the years 1978-1998, the comparison reflects badly on the supposedly ancient British democracy compared to the newborn Spanish democracy.

Ulster has a very limited autonomy compared to Spain's regional governments, and the British government has not hesitated in suspending it several times, when the local government has not met its obligations.

And you dare give lessons?



Quote:
In contrast Spain sends in paramilitary police to crush the protesters.
Already answered. This is a distortion of reality. They are regular police just like any other, and their actions are completely legal, and justified, and supported by the law abidding Catalans that are against secession. You are leaving out of the picture the relief that the pro-Spain Catalans are feeling at finally having their rights and freedoms upheld against the tyranny of the Catalan separatists.



[quote
The instincts of the Spanish government haven't changed that much since the time of Franco.
[/QUOTE]

Franco's been dead for more than 40 years. Spain is a completely different country these days. You forget that the Spanish government is not a fascistic dictatorship, but the legitimate democratically elected government of Spain who has sworn the oath to upheld the constitution and the laws, just as the Catalan authorities did, and it is fullfilling its duty to defend the rights and liberties of Spanish Catalans that are being threatened by the rogue Catalan authorities.

You and the posters that say similar things are saying outrageous and blatant falsehoods who have no relation whatsoever with reality.

Will you admit you are wrong and do not have any knowledge of the issue?

Quote:
He executed Catalan independence supporters, I wonder if the current PM will do the same.
You are trolling, right? For your information the death penalty was abolished, and it was retained only in military penal law in times of war. At present the military justice code does not contemplate the death penatly.

That would be a really far fetched proposition. It would mean the seccession attempt becomes violent, and the violence recquires the adoption of the state of exception, contemplated in the Constitution for such eventuality, and the employ of the armed forces, and that the violence is such that there's need to reinstate the death penalty under martial law.

In short, no. That's not going happen unless the Catalan traitors start committing crimes or attrocities like back in the days of the Spanish Civil war. Then it would be just and deserved punishment.


And going back again to Franco. It would help if you were more specific instead of saying gratuitous false and offensive statements. Franco's courts sentenced to death lots of Catalans members of separatist parties... who were duly convicted by crimes and attrocities commited during the civil war.

You probably meant the highest ranking of them, Companys, the president of the Catalan autonomous government, who if any of you ever read any history or bothered to know more instead of making offensive and disparaging statements that are inaccurate and false, was a traitor... to the Spanish Republic. He attempted a coup in 1934 to proclaim the seccession of Catalonia, in unisonn with the attemped seizure of power by the Socialist party and the Communist in the Asturias revolution of October of 1934. That his pitiful band of Fascists separatists had so little support and the coup was so ill plotted that the farcical revolt was over in a matter of hours, being completely overshadowed by the Socialist uprising, does it not make less serious or tragic for the victims, with scores of dead and wounded (fifty dead among the rebels).


Companys should have been executed as a traitor by the Republic, but he eventually got scotch free, as the successive republican governments of one sign or the other exerted clemency rather than executing the leaders of the succesive coups of every faction in almost each year of the Republic's existence. So Companys was pardoned by a rightist government, just as the Socialist leaders also got away, while before the leftist government hadn't dared execute General Sanjurjo after his failed plot to not make a martyr out of him.

Companys was again at the head of the Catalan regional government by the time the civil war broke out, and if the Nationals had not shot him, the Reds most certainly would have done so, because he plotted again to take advantage of the chaos to secede Catalonia, and waged its own private war in the first months in paralell sending the Red militas to invade Mallorca island to add it to the desired Catalonian republic, attempt wich failed, until the Madrid Republican government reasserted control over Catalonia.

Eventually after the war Companys had the misfortune to stay in France instead of fleeing to Mexico or elsewhere like most of the Reds leadeships and was turned over to the Spanish authorities, who duly executed him, but not for being a Catalan separatist or his treason in 1934, as nobody can be trialed twice for the same crime. He was executed not for being on the losing side, but for all the crimes and attrocities the Red militias, wich also had perpetrated in Catalonia during his rule, there's no excuse that he was just a figurehead and powerless to prevent the mass murders by the armed worker militias ofthe Reds and Blacks, the Marxists and Anarchists, as the top authority he was responsible for it. But he also was directly responsible for the attrocities perpetrated by the Greens, his own political party, Esquerra Republicana (ERC). He was trialed, convicted and sentenced and justly executed for war crimes, not for being a separatist.

You know, the problem of Spanish democracy is not that still has remains of an autocracy as you make, is that the political parties of the left are the same as the ones from the Republic and Civil War times, and haven't broken completely or recanted from their antidemocratic violent past. The Socialists gave up violent revolution but still have a totalitarian attitude, and ERC separatists remain the same Fascists today as then.

The problem with democracy in Spain is that there are not enough true democrats, and that's why it has come down to this. With fascists using democracy just as a means to destroy it.


Now, will you and the others like you please stop insulting the Spaniards, insulting me personally, and keep saying false and absurd things? Will you please admit you are wrong that you don't know what you are talking about and you are saying things that are not true?

Will you please realize the kind of fascists you are siding with and the harm they are causing themselves and the rest of Spain? You would not tolerate this kind of behaviour in your country, so why you want the Spanish people to suffer? What harm we have done to you for us to treat us so badly ? Huh?
__________________
CANNON, n.
An instrument employed in the rectification of national boundaries.

The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

http://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/

http://pinturasdeguerra.tumblr.com/

http://pinturasdeguerra-mar.tumblr.com/

Last edited by von Junzt; 04 Oct 17 at 12:28..
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 04 Oct 17, 13:16
Rutger's Avatar
Rutger Rutger is offline
Second Lieutenant
Netherlands
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Rutger
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hengelo
Posts: 432
Rutger is on the path to success [1-99] Rutger is on the path to success [1-99] Rutger is on the path to success [1-99] Rutger is on the path to success [1-99] Rutger is on the path to success [1-99] Rutger is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
AIUI opinion polls were not showing 50% or more of Catalonians as being pro-independence, so if their Parliament does declare independence, what about all the pro-Spain areas?
Will they be allowed to remain part of Spain?
That's what struck me a couple days ago; all in all, there doesn't seem to be a majority for independence.

I'd say the Spanish government gave a text book example of how not to deal with people. Their acting will have pushed a noticable percentage towards the independence side.
__________________
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return"
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 21:13.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.