Originally Posted by Surrey
This demonstrates the great difference between Britain with its democratic tradition and Spain which as only and seemingly ncompletely emerged from autocracy and dictatorship.
Discounting your lack of knowledge and offensive remarks about Spain, you are right here partially, but not in the way you think. There has never been any democracy in Catalonia, and Basque country, where they went straight from Franco dictatorship to separatist dictatorship.
The rest of Spain is free, democratic and with alternance in power, and working under the rule of law, despite the best efforts of the left to perpetuate itself in power and turn Spain into a Mexico one-party dictatorship.
This time the Catalan fascists are a threat to the whole of Spain, not just the other half of Catalans.
n Britain when the regional Parliament in Scotland went nationalist the UK government allowed and facilitated a referendum on independence. Britain is a democracy ruled by consent. In Northern Ireland in contrast there was never a referendum as the majority population have always supported remaining in the UK - evidenced by the number of Unionist MPs.
It's rich coming from the British giving lessons in democracy, human rights and respect to minorities. You are not fooling anyone. Britain may be a democracy, but Ireland was a colony where British bayonets and British settlers oppressed the native Irish. The British were forced to reliniquish most of Ireland after not being able to put down the rebellion and only held onto the areas were the British colonists were a small majority. Northern Ireland was not democratic, it was a Protestant dictatorship through rigged elections and where Irish Catholics were treated as second class citizens. your Prime Minister Tony Blair officially acknowledged that, and the violence and Irish terrorism in Ulster and reonly ended when the British, tired of the conflict finally forced the Protestants into sharing power and ensuring free and fair elections and the human rights of the Irish Catholic. In the end, the IRA won. They didn't achieve their aim of reunification with Ireland, but forced the British and the Protestants to treat the Irish population as equals, to give up sectarian violence, and with the compromise of not preventing the Ulster joining Ireland if the majority of the population wishes so. With demographic trends and Brexit that might happen sooner.
Your British had elite paratroopers massacring peaceful protesters at the Bloody Sunday. The record on human rights violations and excesses caused by British occupation troops and Protestant police in Ulster, and British police and security services is appalling.
If we compared the British response to Irish violence to the Spanish response to Basque separatists during the years 1978-1998, the comparison reflects badly on the supposedly ancient British democracy compared to the newborn Spanish democracy.
Ulster has a very limited autonomy compared to Spain's regional governments, and the British government has not hesitated in suspending it several times, when the local government has not met its obligations.
And you dare give lessons?
In contrast Spain sends in paramilitary police to crush the protesters.
Already answered. This is a distortion of reality. They are regular police just like any other, and their actions are completely legal, and justified, and supported by the law abidding Catalans that are against secession. You are leaving out of the picture the relief that the pro-Spain Catalans are feeling at finally having their rights and freedoms upheld against the tyranny of the Catalan separatists.
The instincts of the Spanish government haven't changed that much since the time of Franco.
Franco's been dead for more than 40 years. Spain is a completely different country these days. You forget that the Spanish government is not a fascistic dictatorship, but the legitimate democratically elected government of Spain who has sworn the oath to upheld the constitution and the laws, just as the Catalan authorities did, and it is fullfilling its duty to defend the rights and liberties of Spanish Catalans that are being threatened by the rogue Catalan authorities.
You and the posters that say similar things are saying outrageous and blatant falsehoods who have no relation whatsoever with reality.
Will you admit you are wrong and do not have any knowledge of the issue?
He executed Catalan independence supporters, I wonder if the current PM will do the same.
You are trolling, right? For your information the death penalty was abolished, and it was retained only in military penal law in times of war. At present the military justice code does not contemplate the death penatly.
That would be a really far fetched proposition. It would mean the seccession attempt becomes violent, and the violence recquires the adoption of the state of exception, contemplated in the Constitution for such eventuality, and the employ of the armed forces, and that the violence is such that there's need to reinstate the death penalty under martial law.
In short, no. That's not going happen unless the Catalan traitors start committing crimes or attrocities like back in the days of the Spanish Civil war. Then it would be just and deserved punishment.
And going back again to Franco. It would help if you were more specific instead of saying gratuitous false and offensive statements. Franco's courts sentenced to death lots of Catalans members of separatist parties... who were duly convicted by crimes and attrocities commited during the civil war.
You probably meant the highest ranking of them, Companys, the president of the Catalan autonomous government, who if any of you ever read any history or bothered to know more instead of making offensive and disparaging statements that are inaccurate and false, was a traitor... to the Spanish Republic. He attempted a coup in 1934 to proclaim the seccession of Catalonia, in unisonn with the attemped seizure of power by the Socialist party and the Communist in the Asturias revolution of October of 1934. That his pitiful band of Fascists separatists had so little support and the coup was so ill plotted that the farcical revolt was over in a matter of hours, being completely overshadowed by the Socialist uprising, does it not make less serious or tragic for the victims, with scores of dead and wounded (fifty dead among the rebels).
Companys should have been executed as a traitor by the Republic, but he eventually got scotch free, as the successive republican governments of one sign or the other exerted clemency rather than executing the leaders of the succesive coups of every faction in almost each year of the Republic's existence. So Companys was pardoned by a rightist government, just as the Socialist leaders also got away, while before the leftist government hadn't dared execute General Sanjurjo after his failed plot to not make a martyr out of him.
Companys was again at the head of the Catalan regional government by the time the civil war broke out, and if the Nationals had not shot him, the Reds most certainly would have done so, because he plotted again to take advantage of the chaos to secede Catalonia, and waged its own private war in the first months in paralell sending the Red militas to invade Mallorca island to add it to the desired Catalonian republic, attempt wich failed, until the Madrid Republican government reasserted control over Catalonia.
Eventually after the war Companys had the misfortune to stay in France instead of fleeing to Mexico or elsewhere like most of the Reds leadeships and was turned over to the Spanish authorities, who duly executed him, but not for being a Catalan separatist or his treason in 1934, as nobody can be trialed twice for the same crime. He was executed not for being on the losing side, but for all the crimes and attrocities the Red militias, wich also had perpetrated in Catalonia during his rule, there's no excuse that he was just a figurehead and powerless to prevent the mass murders by the armed worker militias ofthe Reds and Blacks, the Marxists and Anarchists, as the top authority he was responsible for it. But he also was directly responsible for the attrocities perpetrated by the Greens, his own political party, Esquerra Republicana (ERC). He was trialed, convicted and sentenced and justly executed for war crimes, not for being a separatist.
You know, the problem of Spanish democracy is not that still has remains of an autocracy as you make, is that the political parties of the left are the same as the ones from the Republic and Civil War times, and haven't broken completely or recanted from their antidemocratic violent past. The Socialists gave up violent revolution but still have a totalitarian attitude, and ERC separatists remain the same Fascists today as then.
The problem with democracy in Spain is that there are not enough true democrats, and that's why it has come down to this. With fascists using democracy just as a means to destroy it.
Now, will you and the others like you please stop insulting the Spaniards, insulting me personally, and keep saying false and absurd things? Will you please admit you are wrong that you don't know what you are talking about and you are saying things that are not true?
Will you please realize the kind of fascists you are siding with and the harm they are causing themselves and the rest of Spain? You would not tolerate this kind of behaviour in your country, so why you want the Spanish people to suffer? What harm we have done to you for us to treat us so badly ? Huh?