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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East

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The Middle East Asia Minor, the Arab Mahgreb, and the Persian Gulf to include tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbors, Terrorist organizations and Iran.

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  #31  
Old 10 Jan 18, 17:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
Most Muslims, historically, have been killed by other Muslims. Just like most Christians have been killed by other Christians. Does not make either religion a death cult.
The fact that their religion calls for the death of non-believers AND they follow it through, even in this day and age, means that islam is a death cult.

Stoning women and children. Tossing homosexuals off of buildings and cliffs. Beheading prisoners on youtube. Setting prisoners on fire, on youtube. Strapping bombs to children. Flying aircraft into skyscrapers. There's only one religion doing the majority of these things today, and they do it in the name of their death cult.
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  #32  
Old 11 Jan 18, 03:46
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Originally Posted by Hida Akechi View Post
The fact that their religion calls for the death of non-believers AND they follow it through, even in this day and age, means that islam is a death cult.

Stoning women and children. Tossing homosexuals off of buildings and cliffs. Beheading prisoners on youtube. Setting prisoners on fire, on youtube. Strapping bombs to children. Flying aircraft into skyscrapers. There's only one religion doing the majority of these things today, and they do it in the name of their death cult.
This is a history forum dude. What is your need to single out Islam as some kind of special thing? Perhaps you should skip off current events for a bit and read other parts of the forum and history a bit more in general.

I would say that we wont see the true effects of Islamic terrorism until generation or so from now, when the children and teens who have truly lived through the hell that it is grow up and start gaining power(moslems, not westerners). There's already some indications of them being quite fed up with it.
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  #33  
Old 11 Jan 18, 16:44
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Originally Posted by Karri View Post
This is a history forum dude.
And this is the current events section,
"dude""

Anyone who has to reach back into the past for the Sins of the Fathers routine really does appear to have a weak case, especially when it comes to appeasing the violently aggressive by ... and this looks very bad ... by trying to make your own side look like the bad guys.

Like waving something red at a Bull that is already charging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
I would say that we wont see the true effects of Islamic terrorism until generation or so from now, when the children and teens who have truly lived through the hell that it is grow up and start gaining power(moslems, not westerners). There's already some indications of them being quite fed up with it.
Another generation of terrorism... you are already resigned to that, eh?

Muslim women have been fed-up for centuries, and yet they are still brutally oppressed , mutilated, beaten, forced into marriages they don't want (including to their cousins) and killed or have acid thrown in their faces for "crimes" ranging from refusing a man's advances to submitting to them.
You are going to change that with PC billboards and community meetings over coffee?

Not a system I would willingly import into my country.
Let us know how many European men start converting to Islam in the near future, and adopt the lifestyle of the stronger culture.
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  #34  
Old 12 Jan 18, 09:55
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
And this is the current events section,
"dude""

Anyone who has to reach back into the past for the Sins of the Fathers routine really does appear to have a weak case, especially when it comes to appeasing the violently aggressive by ... and this looks very bad ... by trying to make your own side look like the bad guys.

Like waving something red at a Bull that is already charging.



Another generation of terrorism... you are already resigned to that, eh?

Muslim women have been fed-up for centuries, and yet they are still brutally oppressed , mutilated, beaten, forced into marriages they don't want (including to their cousins) and killed or have acid thrown in their faces for "crimes" ranging from refusing a man's advances to submitting to them.
You are going to change that with PC billboards and community meetings over coffee?

Not a system I would willingly import into my country.
Let us know how many European men start converting to Islam in the near future, and adopt the lifestyle of the stronger culture.


It's not about sins of our fathers, though that is the connection you want to make, since it supports your own argument/worldview/resignation. Accepting facts isn't resigning to anything, not accepting them is. And my guess is that once this wave of terrorism ends something else will pick up. Like it always has.

We can discuss these trends, and history, if you are willing to do so, but if you're going to live in your deluded dreams of blaming liberalism, lefties, weak European men and whatnot of whatever it is that you cannot see without tinted glasses there's no point in any discussion. It is just your version of billboards and coffee. or, to be exact this forum is your version of billboards and coffee. Or are you doing something else that ranting here to solve this problem you see in the world?

We could start with womens rights in general, since apparently you think moslems are, again, somehow special in denying them. In that regard perhaps turn into the recent #metoo campaign and tell me if your first thought isn't belittling it. Or are you gonna excuse it because someone else is being shittier? Or how long do you think women have had any rights in the western world in general?


As for converts...well, there's always that part of population that is idiotic, needs to feel special or something else. The vast majority of European at this day and age don't give two shits about religion. Even in countries like Finland where we still have a state religion the religion itself has very little to no effect. The only converts are generally former neo-nazis or other dipshit idiots.
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Last edited by Karri; 12 Jan 18 at 10:53..
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  #35  
Old 12 Jan 18, 15:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
It's not about sins of our fathers, though that is the connection you want to make, since it supports your own argument/worldview/resignation. Accepting facts isn't resigning to anything, not accepting them is.
The facts are not the problem, the problem I have is the use you are putting them to.

The institutionalized self-hatred mandated by the Left demeans and dehumanizes those of European descent and has invited an aggressive ideology to take power in Fortress London, among other places.

And once it is over, you folks will just make up new excuses about how you really just deserved it and should just accept 2nd-class status as Dhimi in your own country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
We can discuss these trends, and history, if you are willing to do so, but if you're going to live in your deluded dreams of blaming liberalism, lefties, weak European men and whatnot of whatever....
Well, if you are going to demean and dismiss everything I have to say even before I have said anything, what would be the point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
We could start with womens rights in general, since apparently you think moslems are, again, somehow special in denying them. ...
Such as what, exactly?
While you would argue about tenths of a % of pay when the Muslim version of Women's rights includes Genital Mutilation, beatings, imprisonment in the home and all of the other things I listed above?
Is there any room for a sense of proportion in any discussion on this matter?

And as for #metoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmA28YqM5Bc




Any of these artificial controls on Human behavior, no matter if they are dictated by Allah or Marxism, become more foolish the more you carry them to whatever extreme you are aiming at.

The Left wants to make it illegal for men to be sexual towards women, Islam wants to make it illegal for women to be sexual... period.

I wonder which one will prevail...
Meanwhile, European men are scolded for urinating when standing up, no wonder so many are running to Islam just to feel worthy of their anatomy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
As for converts... Even in countries like Finland where we still have a state religion the religion itself has very little to no effect.
Good!
Separation of church and state is a good thing!
Guess where that idea came from.
Guess what Religion is most savagely opposed to that separation?
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  #36  
Old 13 Jan 18, 05:27
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
The facts are not the problem, the problem I have is the use you are putting them to.

The institutionalized self-hatred mandated by the Left demeans and dehumanizes those of European descent and has invited an aggressive ideology to take power in Fortress London, among other places.

And once it is over, you folks will just make up new excuses about how you really just deserved it and should just accept 2nd-class status as Dhimi in your own country.
Again, your building your own narrative over mine; blaming the left and whatnot, building some glorious "European descent" all the while pissing on all the Europeans here. To me your talk of Moslem take over sounds just like talk about Jewish takeover. You have said nothing that would convince me otherwise.

Quote:
Well, if you are going to demean and dismiss everything I have to say even before I have said anything, what would be the point?
Pot, meet kettle.

Quote:
Such as what, exactly?
While you would argue about tenths of a % of pay when the Muslim version of Women's rights includes Genital Mutilation, beatings, imprisonment in the home and all of the other things I listed above?
Is there any room for a sense of proportion in any discussion on this matter?
Tenths of pay has more to do with women not asking for more money. My argument is with the fact that you speak of western society as some kind of superior culture when it comes to this, when it is clear that the changes compared to rest of the world have only come in the last 100 years. Three-four generations seems to be enough time to lose your perspective, but in reality it is not a long stretch of time by any means.

Furthermore, these changes came about because of two world wars, where tens of millions of people lost their lives. Without them, would women even be allowed to work in western societies these days? If we hadn't needed them in factories when men were on the battlefields would the situation be much different from 3rd world countries? Or take something like divorce rates; are they high because we no longer have morals, or are they high because women CAN now divorce freely? For my grandmother it was almost unthinkable, for my mother possible and for my wife a choice without stigma. These things did not exist in the nature of "western culture" nor do they stem from it. It is changes we and our ancestors have enforced upon our own system. Change, as they call it.

This is not, as I think you imply, an argument that moslems are somehow equal in women's rights. They are not; women there have close to zero rights. The point is rather that historically speaking the situation is not at all different from what it has been with us. It is not inherent in the religion of Islam but in the nature of man. As religion loses sway those who control the religion will try to enforce their views with iron and blood; and as history tells us it is a fight they are going to lose. But only with time.

Quote:
And as for #metoo
Exactly, dismissal is your first reaction. I am not gong to say this campaign hasn't turned into a lot of bullshit, but that doesn't mean there isn't something behind it. At the core of it is still the fact that a lot of people abuse their powers and position, and a lot of people accept such behavior. Why? If you claim to have the high ground then you need to actually have it, otherwise your words count for nothing.


Quote:
Any of these artificial controls on Human behavior, no matter if they are dictated by Allah or Marxism, become more foolish the more you carry them to whatever extreme you are aiming at.
We can agree on that, though I believe the "artificial controls" are inherent in everything; not just Islam or Marxism. It stems from basic human nature, greed and control. Democracy is not the same as freedom; and freedom is something that must come from an individual, not the system. Sadly, when it comes to freedom our western society has taken quite a few steps backwards. We are controlled and monitored all the time, and even in this forum such actions are generally welcomed by a lot of people.

[QUOTE]
The Left wants to make it illegal for men to be sexual towards women, Islam wants to make it illegal for women to be sexual... period.

The left and the right are both as lost in this regard as is Islam.

Quote:
I wonder which one will prevail...
Meanwhile, European men are scolded for urinating when standing up, no wonder so many are running to Islam just to feel worthy of their anatomy.
Now this is just nonsense. No one is flocking to Islam; like I said religion here holds no sway. Shouldn't believe everything they say in YouTube; it is representative of the viewpoint of the one who makes the video, not of everyone.

Quote:
Good!
Separation of church and state is a good thing!
Guess where that idea came from.
Guess what Religion is most savagely opposed to that separation?
John Locke? But we have arrived at the very core of the issue here: it is not the religion that is opposed to it, but those who control the state and the religion by combining them both. How and why do you think Europe became a stronghold for Christianity? Do you know how the reformation worked? In Finland we have the lutheran church because some time in the past a king decided that was a good idea to control his lands(nationalising the catholic property so to speak). Those kinds fought bloody wars all throughout Europe to enforce their religion; but in truth they were just seeking ways to increase their own domains. 30 years wars is said to have depopulated vast stretches of Germany; 10 million dead and so on. It wasn't until 1900's that freedom of religion came about.


Islam and moslems are not eternal, once it loses hold of the power it will disappear into annals of history, or become a footnote in the book of cultures. Just like our religions. But it will take time until they come out of their stone age. What happens after that is anybody's guess, but my guess is that there will be new struggles for power, just like there has always been.
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  #37  
Old 13 Jan 18, 10:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
Most Muslims, historically, have been killed by other Muslims. Just like most Christians have been killed by other Christians. Does not make either religion a death cult.
This is irrelevant : I don't care if they kill each other,the more they kill each other the less dangerous they are for us .
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  #38  
Old 13 Jan 18, 11:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
There is always conflict between the young and the stupid old men trying to prevent change because change scares the older generation.

But change is inevitable. Ali Khamenei has a rendezvous with a funeral home and after him Iran won't have a Supreme Leader again, not in the image of this clown.

Islamic fundamentalism is finished because this is the trend around the world and you can't stop global trends. People are infinitely better educated than in past centuries, and religion is being replaced with other ideas to motivate young people. What has started with empty churches in Western Europe will spread to other parts of the world, including Islamic countries.

That's a dangerous and wrong illusion : most terrorist are very good educated . Due to the cowards and traitors who are governing us, we are losing . ISIS is defeated in Syria and Iraq but becomes stronger in Europe, Canaa and the US . Every day . The more Muslims in Canada, the USA and Europe the strongrt ISIS will be .

What has started with empty churches in Western Europe will NOT spread to Islamic countries . Because Muslims are different from Europeans .
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  #39  
Old 13 Jan 18, 23:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Again, your building your own narrative over mine; blaming the left and whatnot, building some glorious "European descent"
Uhhh... what exactly have I ever said that translates as "glorious" in regards to Europe?

We broke away from you guys, not the other way around.
And I have also been the one saying that American needs to turn away from Europe, and towards Asia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
all the while pissing on all the Europeans here. To me your talk of Moslem take over sounds just like talk about Jewish takeover. You have said nothing that would convince me otherwise.
I can't help what you think.
I'm not a Leftist, thought-control or the modification of other people's minds is not my schtick.

And, I have been trying to avoid saying anything that would reveal that I am not a racist. I have found that doing so terminates the participation of the person I am arguing with. Presumably they go off in search of a better enemy...

However, let me say something about history in Europe.
Centuries ago, there was another minority coming out of the Middle East that the Germans most especially were welcoming towards. Needing better class of merchants, took these well-traveled (something few Germans were at the time) and very high-I.Q. newcomers in, showed them where to get an education and so on.
These newcomers took new names that could be understood by the locals that also reflected their trade, as was common at the time... names like Goldmann or Goldstein and so on. They never entirely assimilated, and there were various ups and downs along the way... but overall it was a good and profitable deal for all concerned.

Then what happened?

Yes, I am talking about the Jews, how many are left in Europe now?
That is the other possibility I am afraid that I see in your future; one side or the other is going to win. It is possible that Europeans will be become the very thing they hate and currently profess NOT to be... simply in order to control the situation.
And we all know how keen Europeans are on controlling things, especially on the national level.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Pot, meet kettle.
Not an argument.
But it does look like an admission that you lost on that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Tenths of pay has more to do with women not asking for more money. My argument is with the fact that you speak of western society as some kind of superior culture when it comes to this, when it is clear that the changes compared to rest of the world have only come in the last 100 years...
Wait... you can't be saying that women in the west had the same raw deal 100+ years ago that the rest of the world's women did?

Like, where? India, China? I'm thinking that charming customs like Sutee and foot-binding would tell you otherwise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Furthermore, these changes came about because of two world wars, where tens of millions of people lost their lives. Without them, would women even be allowed to work in western societies these days? If we hadn't needed them in factories when men were on the battlefields would the situation be much different from 3rd world countries?
Nope, that just helped it along. Most women got the vote before, during or right after the First World War, things had been headed that way for a long time before that.
Well, except maybe Switzerland, women didn't get the vote there in 1971... within about ten years of the time when (open) Slavery was finally abolished in Saudi Arabia.
Ottoman Turkey and China had gotten rid of slavery in 1906 and 1907, under considerable pressure from the West.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Or take something like divorce rates; are they high because we no longer have morals, or are they high because women CAN now divorce freely? For my grandmother it was almost unthinkable, for my mother possible and for my wife a choice without stigma. These things did not exist in the nature of "western culture" nor do they stem from it. It is changes we and our ancestors have enforced upon our own system. Change, as they call it.
Exactly the kind of change that fundamental believers in the Koran are most strongly opposed to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
This is not, as I think you imply, an argument that moslems are somehow equal in women's rights. They are not; women there have close to zero rights. The point is rather that historically speaking the situation is not at all different from what it has been with us. It is not inherent in the religion of Islam but in the nature of man. As religion loses sway those who control the religion will try to enforce their views with iron and blood; and as history tells us it is a fight they are going to lose. But only with time.
Time, and pressure, reasons to do a thing, change may seem inevitable but it also must have a cause.
The only natural change that you can reliably expect is decay and decline into chaos.

Where is the motivation for Muslims to change? All I see is relentless pressure on the native population of Europe to accommodate the muslims, because if they don't bend over backwards for the followers of that Religion then they must be racists...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Exactly, dismissal is your first reaction. I am not gong to say this campaign hasn't turned into a lot of bullshit,
You call it dismissal, but you have the same reaction to it.
Curious standards you are hitting me with here ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
but that doesn't mean there isn't something behind it. At the core of it is still the fact that a lot of people abuse their powers and position, and a lot of people accept such behavior. Why? If you claim to have the high ground then you need to actually have it, otherwise your words count for nothing.
There were a lot of words in that YouTube vid, and I don't have time to transcribe them all, nor am I so inclined if you are just going to dismiss every Vid I post on the basis that they are Vids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
We can agree on that, though I believe the "artificial controls" are inherent in everything; not just Islam or Marxism. It stems from basic human nature, greed and control. Democracy is not the same as freedom; and freedom is something that must come from an individual, not the system. Sadly, when it comes to freedom our western society has taken quite a few steps backwards. We are controlled and monitored all the time, and even in this forum such actions are generally welcomed by a lot of people.
Hell yeah!
Something we agree on, at last!
And if that trend ever reverses itself, I promise you, I will be ecstatic.

However, that is yet another change that has to be caused, rather than waited for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
The left and the right are both as lost in this regard as is Islam.
Whoa!
No no no, when you reach the point where you have to admit that your side got something wrong, you can't just say "well everyone is guilty of that so its no bog deal".
That is Ostrich-ism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Now this is just nonsense. No one is flocking to Islam; like I said religion here holds no sway. Shouldn't believe everything they say in YouTube; it is representative of the viewpoint of the one who makes the video, not of everyone.
Speaking of the Ostrich syndrome ...


Quote:
Of an estimated six million Muslims in France, about 100,000 are thought to be converts, compared with about 50,000 in 1986, according to Mr. Godard. Muslim associations say the number is as high as 200,000. But France, which has a population of about 65 million, defines itself as secular and has no official statistics broken down by race or creed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/wo...es-france.html


Getting exact information on this is somewhat challenging, I wonder why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Islam

Quote:
In Britain, the number of Muslim converts recently passed the 100,000 mark, according to a survey conducted by an inter-faith group called Faith Matters. The survey revealed that nearly two thirds of the converts were women, more than 70% were white and the average age at conversion was just 27.

In France, an estimated 70,000 French citizens have converted to Islam in recent years, according to a report by France 3 public television.

In Sweden, there are now at least 5,000 converts to Islam.

In Germany, at least 20,000 people have converted to Islam in recent years, according to a report by RTL television. Some of these converts are playing a growing role in jihad in Germany. In 2010, for example, two German converts to Islam who were found guilty of plotting to create what a judge called a "monstrous blood bath" by carrying out terrorist attacks against American targets in Germany.
And that was back in 2012

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2...rting-to-islam
Your state-approved news service might not be doing you much of a service.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
It wasn't until 1900's that freedom of religion came about.
Huh?
It was in the 1700s here, are you sure about that?

It still hasn't come about in the Islamic world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Islam and moslems are not eternal, once it loses hold of the power it will disappear into annals of history, or become a footnote in the book of cultures. Just like our religions. But it will take time until they come out of their stone age. What happens after that is anybody's guess, but my guess is that there will be new struggles for power, just like there has always been.
See above.

And also look for pics of what the Muddle East was starting to look like into the 1970s, with men AND women in western dress ring modern jet-liners. People in the beaches or traveling freely who were NOT foreign tourists!

All this back-sliding didn't start until about 1979, when the Shah was overthrown, Mecca was seized by Terrorists and then the USSR invaded Afghanistan ... and the later was something that would not have happened unless the first one did.

They are moving, but not in the direction we were hoping for.
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Old 14 Jan 18, 06:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
Uhhh... what exactly have I ever said that translates as "glorious" in regards to Europe?

We broke away from you guys, not the other way around.
And I have also been the one saying that American needs to turn away from Europe, and towards Asia.
Then I am lost as to what you feel like is being lost here. If we are turds then what does it matter if we change into another kind of turd?

Quote:
And, I have been trying to avoid saying anything that would reveal that I am not a racist. I have found that doing so terminates the participation of the person I am arguing with. Presumably they go off in search of a better enemy...
Racism is a dead belief; no one even knows what it means today.

Quote:
However, let me say something about history in Europe.
Centuries ago, there was another minority coming out of the Middle East that the Germans most especially were welcoming towards. Needing better class of merchants, took these well-traveled (something few Germans were at the time) and very high-I.Q. newcomers in, showed them where to get an education and so on.
These newcomers took new names that could be understood by the locals that also reflected their trade, as was common at the time... names like Goldmann or Goldstein and so on. They never entirely assimilated, and there were various ups and downs along the way... but overall it was a good and profitable deal for all concerned.

Then what happened?
Actually, these newcomers were forced into these trades as everything else was forbidden from them. I've heard theories that they became smart because of that(unless you were good with numbers you died), though I wonder if those hold any truth in them. They also didn't migrate centuries but millenias ago.

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Yes, I am talking about the Jews, how many are left in Europe now?
That is the other possibility I am afraid that I see in your future; one side or the other is going to win. It is possible that Europeans will be become the very thing they hate and currently profess NOT to be... simply in order to control the situation.
And we all know how keen Europeans are on controlling things, especially on the national level.
Couple of million, they were happily killed by everyone during centuries and centuries. Just like all other minorities. Nationalism was a big driving force in that. I am not going to argue that that wont be one possible outcome. If the issue of moslem terrorism or influence over European ways ever gets that big then they will be wiped out. I'm not saying that is a good or preferable outcome, just that your arguments about moslem takeover are ridiculous when you check our track record...current situation is nowhere near that.

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Not an argument.
But it does look like an admission that you lost on that point.
Not an argument, just saying that if you don't listen neither will I. So far we've gotten further than anyone on this board in the lat year or so

Quote:
Wait... you can't be saying that women in the west had the same raw deal 100+ years ago that the rest of the world's women did?
I am saying that women in the west have had a raw deal for a very long time, now they are starting to do ok. If we can advance so far in hundred years then certainly others can as well. And at the same time if it has taken such a long time to reach this position it is silly to assume others will do so in mere years.

Quote:
Like, where? India, China? I'm thinking that charming customs like Sutee and foot-binding would tell you otherwise.
Sutee and foot binding are certainly things to look at, but so are marriage laws and rights to own property. Or the right of men to treat women as property.

Quote:
Nope, that just helped it along. Most women got the vote before, during or right after the First World War, things had been headed that way for a long time before that.
Well, except maybe Switzerland, women didn't get the vote there in 1971... within about ten years of the time when (open) Slavery was finally abolished in Saudi Arabia.
Ottoman Turkey and China had gotten rid of slavery in 1906 and 1907, under considerable pressure from the West.
Finland was the third to do so in 1906, vast majority of countries after WWI and WWII:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage

That is not such a long time ago.

USA got rid of slavery during it's bloodiest war(whether or not that is the reason why it was fought), mere generation or two before Turkey and China.


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Exactly the kind of change that fundamental believers in the Koran are most strongly opposed to.
Of course they are, since they will lose all their power.

Quote:
Time, and pressure, reasons to do a thing, change may seem inevitable but it also must have a cause.
The only natural change that you can reliably expect is decay and decline into chaos.
Unless these changes come about the only other option is the natural change that you mentioned. Right now the fundamentalist are trying to take over in moslems countries, and it seems to me that they are failing. The old powers that be cannot keep control either because of the ongoing modernisation. At the end of the day people will accept change if it is the only way to live in peace...though how many millions will die before that happens is anyone's guess.

One can never underestimate the power of terror either: it will leave massive scars for generations to come. Generally speaking such scars dont call for more bloodshed. Compare to WWI, WW2, civil wars of our own countries etc. perhaps this is mere optimism from my part, but given how many moslems have died from islamistic terrorism surely they are starting to get fed up with it(despite what you see on foxnews).

Quote:
Where is the motivation for Muslims to change? All I see is relentless pressure on the native population of Europe to accommodate the muslims, because if they don't bend over backwards for the followers of that Religion then they must be racists...
That's because you're an ocean away; no one here is bending backwards, not anymore anyways. The wave of political correctness has pretty much died, and most of the bad news you hear about are just basic government/politicians being corrupt and inept. Just because you can't go into Facebook yelling all about moslems being this and that and ****ing donkeys all day long doesn't mean that we are building minarets with white slave labour if asked.

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Hell yeah!
Something we agree on, at last!
And if that trend ever reverses itself, I promise you, I will be ecstatic.

However, that is yet another change that has to be caused, rather than waited for.
It's absurd that we have freedom of speech but no freedom to speak. Though I would say this is partly due to the generational differences again, younger people(millenials especially) understand technology on a whole another level.

Quote:
Whoa!
No no no, when you reach the point where you have to admit that your side got something wrong, you can't just say "well everyone is guilty of that so its no bog deal".
That is Ostrich-ism.
I didn't say it's not a big deal, just that to me both the left and the right don't really know what they are talking about. Islam is of course complete bollocks in this regard. All around people seem to be listening to the hot heads. Yet somehow most people in western countries are capable of treating each others as more or less equals.

Quote:

Getting exact information on this is somewhat challenging, I wonder why.
No need to wonder; it's simply because those things aren't recorded. To my understanding census are not exactly all that welcomed in USA either?

An increase of 50 000 in 26 years(around 2000 people per year) doesn't seem significant to me from the point of demographic change. These are mostly the kind of people who would have flocked to one extremist ideology or another anyways. It is no surprise that among those people you find for example a lot of former neo-nazis.

The real issue is not people converting to Islam, the issue is moslems not being allowed to leave their faith. This is because of social stigma and pressure; not because they will be stoned to death in European countries. On the other hand if you compare this to the traditional European religion it is again a generational thing(or if you compare to strict fundamentalist like lestadions[?], jehowas witness or stuff like scientologist it's the same thing). It is only lately for example that people have started abandoning the church in Finland; before this it was quite clear though that the people who are members of church they are so only because of tradition.

More studies regarding this would be welcomed, but most of them take the form of "moslems multiply like rabbits", which is sensational but not useful for anything.

Quote:
And that was back in 2012

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2...rting-to-islam
Your state-approved news service might not be doing you much of a service.
Choose your sources carefully and believe no one source on anything. Liam Neeson for example hasn't converted. I am not that surprised that there are people who convert...Islam offers them something they want, usually way to deal with life they cannot otherwise cope. This only applies to a certain percentage of population, who I would say are vulnerable to such things. Not all of them convert to Islam, some become devout Christians, some find other groups to call home, some turn into drugs and alcohol(or away from them). There's plenty of videos in YouTube about finnish prisoners, usually murderes and like, who have become devout christians because, as they say, that is how they finally found inner peace, forgiveness and the feeling that they are finally accepted as they are. Or like the article said; young prisoners convert because they feel like they get better food that way.

Again, proper studies would be welcomed. And never trust what the governmet or its news service say, the powers that be always just look after their own interest.

Not all of them are nutjobs of course, but a lot of them are. And if they weren't planning bloodbaths in the name of Islam they would do it under some other excuse.

Quote:

Huh?
It was in the 1700s here, are you sure about that?

It still hasn't come about in the Islamic world.
Freedom of religion requires a democratic country, or some semblance of it. Islamic countries for the most part aren't that. I don't find the reason to be Islam but rather human nature. Religion is used to control the people, it is very, very useful for that. That is why freedom of religion only happened in the 20th century in Europe. In USA earlier probably because of the fact that a lot of the people were fleeing religious persecution in the first place. Though of course there are plenty of exceptions(Poland-Lithuania stands out); countries that had such sizable majorities that religious wars would have torn them apart. Russia, to my knowledge, has never been an example of religious persecution. Of course pogroms still happened for one reason or another.

How did freedom of religion work in use in USA during 1700s? Or was it freedom to choose a christian denomination? Atheists still don't seem to be able to hold a public office there.

Quote:
See above.

And also look for pics of what the Muddle East was starting to look like into the 1970s, with men AND women in western dress ring modern jet-liners. People in the beaches or traveling freely who were NOT foreign tourists!

All this back-sliding didn't start until about 1979, when the Shah was overthrown, Mecca was seized by Terrorists and then the USSR invaded Afghanistan ... and the later was something that would not have happened unless the first one did.

They are moving, but not in the direction we were hoping for.
Naturally you have to throw in the fact that these countries were governed by dictators, were still largely trusting on tribal power structures, and oppressed anyone who didn't agree with them. Would fundamentalist Islam had risen without these(of course, in one form or another)? Iran is a prime example, would the Ayatollah ever had risen to power if Western Powers hadn't secured their interests for oil?

At the end of the day religious leaders are no different from any other. If they have power they will protect that power. Those leaders having these powers is not compatible with modern world, or at least with western view of modern world, and as such the only remaining option for them is violence and oppression. You don't remain a fundamentalist moslem through conversation, but by forbidding conversation. And if there are no fundamentalist they have no power. I don't really see any situation where they can win this fight, I only see that it will take a long time before they lose. And so far they have only been losing.
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  #41  
Old 16 Jan 18, 14:23
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Trying to keep it short here...

I was considering letting you have the last word there, that was a very good post.

But there are just a couple of things I think I need to correct in that LONG post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Then I am lost as to what you feel like is being lost here. If we are turds then what does it matter if we change into another kind of turd?
Because I don't want it to happen here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Racism is a dead belief; no one even knows what it means today.
Then why is everyone opposed to Islam or supportive of their own nation accused of being a racist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Actually, these newcomers were forced into these trades as everything else was forbidden from them. I've heard theories that they became smart because of that(unless you were good with numbers you died), though I wonder if those hold any truth in them. They also didn't migrate centuries but millenias ago.
I think you will find that IGs among the Jews of of diaspora have one of the highest IQ averages of any group of people ever measured.

Millennia?
Funny, I am trying to picture the scene... Jews tramping north into the wilderness while Germanic Barbarians are trudging south to smash the Roman Empire.
... I wonder if they exchanged comments on the weather as they passed by each other on the trail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
I am saying that women in the west have had a raw deal for a very long time, now they are starting to do ok. If we can advance so far in hundred years then certainly others can as well. And at the same time if it has taken such a long time to reach this position it is silly to assume others will do so in mere years.
It didn't take so long for slavery to be ended. And since women's rights amount to freeing the last of our slaves, why not?
Given the reactions in Iraq and Afghanistan, muslim women are MORE than ready for this kind of change!

As for the men, hit them with this message (an invention of my own); Any society that deliberately ignores 50% of its available brains will get what it deserves; left behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
USA got rid of slavery during it's bloodiest war(whether or not that is the reason why it was fought), mere generation or two before Turkey and China.
Now, you see, that is the kind of baloney-slicing that is really disingenuous.
42 years is not "a generation or two" it is more than two. Why must you try to minimize this like that?
Going by the same standard, it wasn't even that much of a gap between the UK and the US's abolition.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
One can never underestimate the power of terror either: it will leave massive scars for generations to come. Generally speaking such scars dont call for more bloodshed. Compare to WWI, WW2, civil wars of our own countries etc. perhaps this is mere optimism from my part, but given how many moslems have died from islamistic terrorism surely they are starting to get fed up with it(despite what you see on foxnews).
If they are getting fed up with it, why are they not doing anything about it?

Only Egypt was able to turn the tide, and they were verbally assaulted by Western Left-wing politicians when they overthrew the Muslim Brotherhood a couple of years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
That's because you're an ocean away; no one here is bending backwards, not anymore anyways. The wave of political correctness has pretty much died,
That sounds like great news!
But... is it true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
I didn't say it's not a big deal, just that to me both the left and the right don't really know what they are talking about. Islam is of course complete bollocks in this regard. All around people seem to be listening to the hot heads. Yet somehow most people in western countries are capable of treating each others as more or less equals.
Good call, but the Koran forbids a moslem to see anyone that is not a muslim as an equal.

But don't argue the point with them when you are alone, if they outnumber you, you will get a beating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
An increase of 50 000 in 26 years(around 2000 people per year) doesn't seem significant to me from the point of demographic change. These are mostly the kind of people who would have flocked to one extremist ideology or another anyways. It is no surprise that among those people you find for example a lot of former neo-nazis.
According to the article there were triple that number 6 years ago, and it has probably doubled since then.
And yes, a lot of the joiners are the same sort that gravitate towards the Nazis and other fringe-groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
More studies regarding this would be welcomed, but most of them take the form of "moslems multiply like rabbits", which is sensational but not useful for anything.
I would have thought that the announcement Mohamed was the most popular name for babies in Britain would have been noticed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Choose your sources carefully and believe no one source on anything. Liam Neeson for example hasn't converted.
The article said he was considering it, not that he had done it yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Not all of them are nutjobs of course, but a lot of them are. And if they weren't planning bloodbaths in the name of Islam they would do it under some other excuse.
No, I don't think so.
Islam does not just encourage that sort of thing... see the bottom of this post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Freedom of religion requires a democratic country, or some semblance of it. Islamic countries for the most part aren't that. I don't find the reason to be Islam but rather human nature. Religion is used to control the people, it is very, very useful for that.
Agreed, I have always tried to avoid it myself.
However, Religion isn't the only ideology that does that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
How did freedom of religion work in use in USA during 1700s?
Its in the Constitution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Naturally you have to throw in the fact that these countries were governed by dictators, were still largely trusting on tribal power structures, and oppressed anyone who didn't agree with them.
And none of that has changed, not a bit of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
And if there are no fundamentalist they have no power. I don't really see any situation where they can win this fight, I only see that it will take a long time before they lose. And so far they have only been losing.
They call every Terror attack a victory, and their followers are so stupid that they believe it.
Stop looking at those attacks as some attempt to influence everyone in an entire nation, because most of the perpetrators don't see it that way. What it really is amounts to ethnic cleansing, genocide on a small scale ... to start with.
Look at their own press releases; "X number of martyrs ascended to Allah after accomplishing the destruction of X number of infidels."
They are keeping score, celebrating a very cost-effective method of population replacement.

Sure, the numbers are not high enough to make a real difference yet, but the propaganda campaign is not directed at you or me, it is used as persuasion and encouragement to their own "moderates" inside Islam.
It is how they convince their own people that they are winning.
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