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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Vietnam War

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Vietnam War The Battle for Vietnam. .

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  #121  
Old 28 Jan 08, 09:05
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Try to relax, even Bush love the life in Vietnam.
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  #122  
Old 28 Jan 08, 09:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA View Post
In 1954, almost all of people, who fighted under the flag of VietMinh went to the North. Converserly, the French must withdraw all of its troops in the North to the South. But, there were still some people who didn't want to leave. There were 20 000 VietMinh people staying in the South. On one hand, they didn't want to leave, on other hand, we suspected the American. And in 1959, of these 20 000, only 2000 left. Do you know why?
To counter the brutal campaign of the South Vietnam government, at first we used only politic. And of course, we suffered heavily. In 1959, the Politburo realised that, we could no longer political struggle. We must act or die.
You contradict yourself here, first your said that per the Geneva agreement all opposing forces had to withdraw, so why did some VM stayed in the South? the only reason is that they stayed behind to destabilize the Diem government, recieving their orders directly from the NVN Politburo. Diem had all the rights to eradicate the last VM strongholds (The PAVN did the same in the north), and he succeeded, hence the decision to invade the south in 1959.
  #123  
Old 28 Jan 08, 10:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA View Post
So, what? In 1911, he was not a communist. Why did he leave his motherland?
If you're gonna quote Wiki, you might aslo want to quote this part:

Quote:
In 1923, Hồ moved to Guangzhou, China. During 1925-26 he organized 'Youth Education Classes' and occasionally gave lectures at the Whampoa Military Academy on the revolutionary movement in Indochina. He stayed there in Hong Kong as a representative of the Communist International. In June 1931, he was arrested and incarcerated by British police until his release in 1933. He then made his way back to the Soviet Union, where he spent several years recovering from tuberculosis. In 1938, he returned to China and served as an adviser with Chinese Communist armed forces.
  #124  
Old 28 Jan 08, 10:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueNfirPS:
we all know to well now that freedom is not free.
Sorry to say, your fellow countryman RGA is not worth having a discussion with. HOWEVER you seem to be a reasonable and thoughtful person and your above quote is the MOST important point you made.

Again
Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN:
HOW'S THAT FREEDOM THING WORKING FOR YOU?
I will attempt to respond to some of your other points:

Quote:
1./ My point was that VN has fought and won an unwanted war. It was the super power USA that dictated the game and it was her who made a series of unjustified errors that costed a few millions Vietnamese and 50K American lives. This would be adverted if you guys told the Frenches to get on with their "Freedom Fries" and leave VN alone. I bet you my house to the donut hole that VN would not become a commie state (but more likely a neutral one).
As far as the U.S. goes, the French had nothing to do with OUR visit to your country - it was all about Communist vs. Democracy. This threat remains today. No way was China and/or Russia going to leave you be a NEUTRAL state. It was a shame that your country was selected to be the chess board for this type of game to be played. I believe you have lost the bet. Or maybe you are planning to overthrow your current Communist government without any help - I SURE HOPE SO - GOD BE WITH YOU.

Quote:
2./ In addition to what I pointed out early on, let's also remember that the entire infrastructure of Vietnam was bombed to rubble thank to American war machine.
I don't think so - consider a couple of cities in Japan and most European cities involved in WWII. Little do you know the POLITICAL restraints that were placed on the American Fighting Forces BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Quote:
3./ The trade embargo imposed by the USA.
Better a trade embargo then absolute destruction. This embargo was acceptable to the American people - absolute destruction was not. THANKS TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FOR THEIR FREEDOM'S STRENGTH TO CONTROL OUR GOVERNMENT.

Quote:
4./ Last but not least and rather an important point: it is not realistic to make a comparison between two states or two events in the history. It is pointless to compare Vietnam and Korea. The South Koreans are hard working and they know how to use every opportunity for their advantage. They deserve a prosperous life. Good on them! The commie North K is actually not bad given their circumtance. They have nuke (or at least be in a position to claim so) and thus have a decent bargaining power against the USA. Wheather or not they (the NK) is an evil regime is beyond the point here.
N. Korea is no threat to the USA. The only thing we are thinking about when it comes to the N. Korean problem is the threat N. Korea has over the S. Korean people and the folks of Japan. We do not want to take the chance that N. Korea would drop nukes on these two countries.

Quote:
Now Ken, how about we look a bit closer to Vietnam, let's talk about the Phillipines once a colony of the USA. No embargo, no war, infrastructure intact. In short, much better condition than VN and yet, few months ago Manila was rocked by a fail coup and terrible state of ecomomy.
The Phillipeans is still a work in progress. We here in the U.S. are not interested in Governing other countries. We that have FREEDOM can make choices. We have allowed the Phillipeans to govern themselves. There are some folks that think that Communist and their form of government are better than FREEDOM.

In your words:
Quote:
PS: we all know to well now that freedom is not free.
SO - Do you mean that your still hoping for freedom or are you going to pay the price and fight for it against your current Government? Like I stated above, we all have our choices.

KEN
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  #125  
Old 28 Jan 08, 11:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boonierat View Post
If you're gonna quote Wiki, you might aslo want to quote this part:
I don't dispute that our uncle Ho was a communist. Instead, I'm proud of that. BUT, as he once said: "it's the nationalist, but communist that inspired me". He found the way to liberate our people from the French, and there is only such a way: the communist.

And you said that, our men stayed in the South is the violence of Geneva. Remmember that, though the Geneva Conference is a victory for us, it's only a limited victory. We liberated the North, but not the South. And we must fight until the whole Vietnam is unified. That's our ultimate aim.
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  #126  
Old 28 Jan 08, 13:10
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Explain freedom for me RGA. I respect that Vietnam wanted to be free from the French but now you are enslaved to the communists. Where is your freedom of speech when it comes to speaking against the government? IT DOESN'T EXIST! They tell you to jump and your only reply is: 'How high sir?'. Perhaps you need to educate yourself on what real freedom is by visiting other countries around the world. If you dislike America because of the past, visit Canada or Australia, etc.

trueNfair, You ask for proof on VC and NVA atrocities? Give me a break. What about the 3,000 - 4,000 that the commie forces MURDERED in cold blood in Hue?
I was Special Forces 67'-69'. I personally witnessed the VC and NVA method of persuation (?). I am still haunted to this day by what I saw. Go visit the country side and speak to those who disagreed with the communists, if there are any left alive. Speak to the Montagnards. What about these ones by the way? What is your country's excuse on their treatment of the wonderful people down to this day. Wake up, the whole damn world knows they are being persecuted. Look on the net and you can find their stories and the lists of organizations trying to help them. Is life free for them??


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  #127  
Old 28 Jan 08, 13:39
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From the following site:
http://www.11thcavnam.com/main/dak_son.htm

Atrocity at Dak Son

In its December 15, 1967 issue, Time magazine described what it called the "worst atrocity yet committed in the Viet Nam war." Dak Son was a hamlet of some 2,000 Montagnard refugees about 75 miles northeast of Saigon. The Communists were intensely interested in Dak Son because the refugees had months earlier fled from life under the Viet Cong. Lest others get the same idea, the Communists decided to make an example of the Montagnards who, Time noted, "were completely unarmed...." On December 5, 1967, "a handful of Viet Cong crawled up to the wall-and-wire perimeter of the hamlet" and called for its inhabitants "to surrender and come out. When they got no takers, they withdrew," but returned and launched their attack around midnight, "pouring machine-gun, mortar and rocket fire into Dak Son."

The 600 Viet Cong assembled outside the hamlet "were armed with 60 flame-throwers. Yelling and screaming, they attacked the town, shooting countless streams of liquid fire that lit up the night and terrified by its very sight a people who had only recently discovered the use of matches." Most of the victims were women and children.

The Viet Cong "were not intent on a military victory but on the cold-blooded, monumental massacre of the helpless Montagnards." To that end, "long ugly belches of flame lashed out from every direction, garishly illuminating the refugee hamlet and searing and scorching everything in their path. The shrieking refugees still inside their houses were incinerated. Many of those who had time to get down into dogholes beneath the houses were asphyxiated. Spraying fire about in great whooshing arcs, the Viet Cong set everything afire: trees, fences, gardens, chickens, the careful piles of grain from the annual harvest. Huts that somehow survived the holocaust were leveled with grenades. Then the hoses of fire were sprayed down inside the exposed burroughs. Later, the Communists incinerated a patch of the main town just for good measure."

Only when they ran out of flame-thrower fuel did the Viet Cong resort to guns. "Forcing 160 of the survivors out of their dogholes," Time continued, "they shot 60 of them to death on the spot. Then, finally abandoning the smoking ruins of Dak Son at dawn, they dragged away with them into the jungle another 100 of the survivors."

Some survivors were left behind. Numb with horror, they "stumbled out to look for wives, children and friends. They held handkerchiefs and cabbage leaves to their faces to ward off the smell of burnt flesh that hung over everything. One by one the dogholes were emptied, giving up the fire-red, bloated, peeling remains of human beings. Charred children were locked in ghastly embrace, infants welded to their mother's breasts. The victims were almost all women and children. The dead adults were covered with scorched mats and blankets salvaged from the ashes, the bodies of babies laid in bamboo baskets. One man lost 13 members of his family."

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Last edited by DeltaOne; 28 Jan 08 at 22:07..
  #128  
Old 28 Jan 08, 14:08
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trueNfair / RGA:

Take a look at the following if you wish to be educated:

http://www.montagnard-foundation.org/opinion.html

D1
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  #129  
Old 28 Jan 08, 16:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boonierat View Post
Nothing is much farther from the truth tNf, the Second Indochina War was started by the Politburo in Hanoi in 1959 when they decided to create the NLF and infiltrate men and materiel in South Vietnam, the idea of America being the agressor in the Vietnam conflcit was a favorite propaganda theme during the War, but has since been acknowledge to be a myth, even by the vietnamese themselves.
You either try to ignore the fact or are quite uninformed about what happened. As I stated in a previous post, the USA financed almost the entire war effort by the Frenches prior to 1954. First American casualty in VN was dated back to this period.
  #130  
Old 28 Jan 08, 16:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN JENSEN View Post
I will attempt to respond to some of your other points:
My points were interrelated and should not be targetted independently as you did. They have synergistic effects Ken! Nevertheless, you raise some important issues in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN JENSEN View Post
As far as the U.S. goes, the French had nothing to do with OUR visit to your country - it was all about Communist vs. Democracy. This threat remains today. No way was China and/or Russia going to leave you be a NEUTRAL state. It was a shame that your country was selected to be the chess board for this type of game to be played. I believe you have lost the bet. Or maybe you are planning to overthrow your current Communist government without any help - I SURE HOPE SO - GOD BE WITH YOU.
Good point and I agree with most of it. BUT you seem to take thing in black and white. There is "the in between Ken". China declared independence in 1947 (2 years after VN). Ho was seeking support for VN independence from the USA in 1945 and all she was required to do was to make a statement. Further to this point, there are many neutral states during the cold war.

Your help to overthrow the current gov of VN. Thank you but NO. The Vietnameses fought hard to earn their independence. They deserve a better life now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN JENSEN View Post

The Phillipeans is still a work in progress. We here in the U.S. are not interested in Governing other countries. We that have FREEDOM can make choices. We have allowed the Phillipeans to govern themselves. There are some folks that think that Communist and their form of government are better than FREEDOM.
So, you are conceding the point. VN is also a work in progress, Ken. The Orientals have its culture and its way of thinking. Who care about the form of government as long as life is good and that the country is free of corruption. VN is doing pretty well now. Of course, one more condition: No foreign intervention!

Last edited by trueNfair; 28 Jan 08 at 19:18..
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  #131  
Old 28 Jan 08, 18:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
trueNfair / RGA:

Take a look at the following if you wish to be educated:

http://www.montagnard-foundation.org/opinion.html

D1
When brothers kill brothers, there is nothing to be proud of. Unfortunately, such thing happened as you guys also had a long civil war.

You seems to let emotion control your argument DeltaOne. This debate is not about the conduct of war, but about the lessons we would learn from it. You claimed to witness horrible crimes by the VCs and NRV, but your citation of the Tet offensive is of public domain and controversial. Let me point out that we should not generalise based on one incident or the conduct of several misbehaviour individuals. My Lai was also a regretable incident that I am sure you would not want to see happening, right? And take my word, I am of course not considering all Americans evil.

I noted the links you provided and thank you for that. However, the website cannot be credited. there are only unsupported allegations. My gut feeling is these allegations are not genuin. At least, since they are purely claims, the current regime is entitled for benefit of the doubt, unless you have a double standards for them!
  #132  
Old 28 Jan 08, 19:00
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Say what you please. At least we as a nation admit that My Lai did happen. As far as the civil war in our country and yours, look the differences in the time period.
I only provided you the example of Hue do to the fact that it, like My Lai, is known to the world, yet many from your country try to deny it. What I have seen, the pictures and reports of it, are so ugly that even in today's culture, no one would post a pic of the scenes. If you want them, search and see what is available. I for one, never want to see such a site for the rest of my life.
How old were you during the war? Did you fight? Did you witness the events or are all of your thoughts based on the one-sided education/reeducation system? Just asking.
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  #133  
Old 28 Jan 08, 19:06
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Originally Posted by Miss.Saigon View Post
I do not believe you can do this in Vietnam. You can tell me if I am wrong, but I believe in Vietnam ordinary people must get permission to leave Vietnam, and usually they must pay a bribe to get this permission. Am I wrong about this? Because family members tell me they cannot leave without permission.
Wow! Miss.SaiGon. You are dead wrong and pretter uninformed about contempory VN.

Okey, from now on, ask me if you want to know how are things in VN. Guaranttee: I will only give you TrueNfair assessment.

It takes 2 weeks to get a passport in VN, no questions asked! Unlike the US where you cann't legally travel to Cuba, you can travel anywhere as long as you the airline allows you (you have a valid doc for your destination). If you are coming to VN you would not be figure-printed the border control!
  #134  
Old 28 Jan 08, 19:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueNfair View Post

Okey, from now on, ask me if you want to know how are things in VN. Guaranttee: I will only give you TrueNfair assessment.
That's what all the government lackies say..., no matter what country they're from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trueNfair View Post
Unlike the US where you cann't legally travel to Cuba, you can travel anywhere as long as you the airline allows you (you have a valid doc for your destination).
Who the f*ck wants to go to Cuba...?
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Last edited by Paul Mann III; 28 Jan 08 at 20:02..
  #135  
Old 28 Jan 08, 20:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueNfair View Post
My points were interrelated and should not be targetted independently as you did. They have synergistic effects Ken! Nevertheless, you raise some important issues in the process.



Good point and I agree with most of it. BUT you seem to take thing in black and white. There is "the in between Ken". China declared independence in 1947 (2 years after VN). Ho was seeking support for VN independence from the USA in 1945 and all she was required to do was to make a statement. Further to this point, there are many neutral states during the cold war.

Your help to overthrow the current gov of VN. Thank you but NO. The Vietnameses fought hard to earn their independence. They deserve a better life now.


So, you are conceding the point. VN is also a work in progress, Ken. The Orientals have its culture and its way of thinking. Who care about the form of government as long as life is good and that the country is free of corruption. VN is doing pretty well now. Of course, one more condition: No foreign intervention!
I didn't target your points on purpose; I addressed your points independently because you specifically numbered each point 1 thru 4.

Your reference to when China became independent. I believe the U.S., Australia, and Great Britain made that possible by kicking the Japanese out of China.

Delta One has a good point - HOW OLD ARE YOU? Do you remember the formation of Formosa? Seems to be doing very well compared to Communist China. China is improving very fast economically due to the fact that Great Britain turned Hong Kong over to them AND we have relaxed our pressure on them - In my opinion the release of Hong Kong was a MISTAKE. We have also made a grave MISTAKE by releasing the Panama Canal - China is now making moves to intermix economically into our society and our quality of goods available within our own country is dropping way below our normal standards. That is the power of the all-mighty dollar. GREEDY FOLKS.

As to the "black and white" issue. I learned a long time ago that their is a color "GRAY". However, most things can be measured in a simple "black and white" approach like being pregnant - one can not be PARTIALLY pregnant.

Communist forms of government tend NOT to allow FREEDOM to its people; whereas Democracy forms of government DO ALLOW FREEDOM to its people.

AGAIN I ASK - HOW'S THAT FREEDOM THING WORKING FOR YOU?

Believe what you wish; your Uncle Ho was not trying to be a neutral country.
He was willing to sell the sole of his people to anyone that would make him the ruler he was seeking to be. GREED YOU KNOW!


KEN
DO NO HARM

Last edited by KEN JENSEN; 28 Jan 08 at 20:08..
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