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  #31  
Old 10 May 12, 11:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Scott Brown wants to steal less money from the people who earned it.
Really?

At best, Scott Brown wants to take money from the sick, poor, and old and give it to students....God forbid that business owners, that directly benefit from your education system, pay a penny.




Oh...look...Elizabeth Warren isn't an Indian.
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  #32  
Old 10 May 12, 11:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Really?

At best, Scott Brown wants to take money from the sick, poor, and old and give it to students....God forbid that business owners, that directly benefit from your education system, pay a penny.


[...]

Oh...look...Elizabeth Warren isn't an Indian.
Scott Brown can't "take money from the sick, poor, and old and give it to students."

He can give less money to sick, poor, and old people who didn't earn it so that he can give a little more money to students who didn't earn it... But, he can only take money from those who earned it.
  #33  
Old 10 May 12, 12:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Scott Brown can't "take money from the sick, poor, and old and give it to students."

He can give less money to sick, poor, and old people who didn't earn it so that he can give a little more money to students who didn't earn it... But, he can only take money from those who earned it.

Oh...and your new super hero was wrong.

When Obama took office Indiana had 77,000 automotive jobs and today they have 100,000 working in that same industry. These are direct jobs and do not include spin-off....so at a minimum Indiana's automotive industry has improved by at least 30% since 2009.

I have no clue what "serious mistake" Mourlock thinks occurred...except his own.
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  #34  
Old 10 May 12, 14:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Oh...and your new super hero was wrong.

When Obama took office Indiana had 77,000 automotive jobs and today they have 100,000 working in that same industry. These are direct jobs and do not include spin-off....so at a minimum Indiana's automotive industry has improved by at least 30% since 2009.

I have no clue what "serious mistake" Mourlock thinks occurred...except his own.
The Indiana State Police Pension Trust was robbed of about 1% of its assets by the Obama administration on behalf of the UAW.

The ~23,000 auto industry jobs were added between June 2009 and October 2010. Total employment in Indiana is about 2.8 million. 23,000 is less than 1% of 2.8 million. Most of those jobs were added by automakers that did not get bailouts.
Quote:
Hiring boosts Indiana auto industry jobs

Tuesday, October 5, 2010

INDIANAPOLIS — Recent hiring at auto plants and parts suppliers across Indiana has pushed total employment in the state's auto industry back over 100,000 — a jump of more than 25 percent from its low point last year.

Bureau of Labor Statistics figures show that Indiana's auto industry employment reached 100,400 in August after bottoming out at 78,700 in June 2009, the Indianapolis Business Journal reported.

Much of that hiring has been done at the hundreds of suppliers that do work for the state's four large assembly plants. Two of those plants, General Motors' truck assembly factory near Fort Wayne and the Subaru factory in Lafayette, have expanded production recently.

[...]

The increase in production is actually slower than economists predicted at the start of the year, Hill said. U.S. auto sales are expected to reach 11.5 million this year, compared to previous annual sales of 15 million.

The added Indiana jobs come in places such as Ryobi Die Casting in Shelbyville, which is adding about 70 jobs through next year with a new production line to build transmission casings for Hyundai. The factory has increased employment from 646 to 766 since January because of more orders from Ford and General Motors, said John Chrzanowski, the plant's human resources director.

[...]

LINK
  #35  
Old 10 May 12, 15:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
The Indiana State Police Pension Trust was robbed of about 1% of its assets by the Obama administration on behalf of the UAW.

The ~23,000 auto industry jobs were added between June 2009 and October 2010. Total employment in Indiana is about 2.8 million. 23,000 is less than 1% of 2.8 million. Most of those jobs were added by automakers that did not get bailouts.
AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME?!!! EVIL REPUBLICANS!!!!

ELIZABETH WARREN!!!! SCOTT BROWN KILLING OLD PEOPLE!!!

E-LIZ-A-BETH WAR-REN!!!!!


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  #36  
Old 10 May 12, 16:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
The Indiana State Police Pension Trust was robbed of about 1% of its assets by the Obama administration on behalf of the UAW.
Anybody that was investing in GM in 2008 was a vulture....or an idiot.

Quote:
The ~23,000 auto industry jobs were added between June 2009 and October 2010. Total employment in Indiana is about 2.8 million. 23,000 is less than 1% of 2.8 million.
Thanks for confirming that it all happened on Obama's watch. 30% increase in the number of automotive jobs in an industry pounded by the recession! awesome job Obama!!!!

Mourlock opposed it.

Your calculator must have the bed. Subaru has 3,000 workers in Indiana...they didn't add 30,000 jobs.

Even if they did, how many Subaru's do you think would have been sold in 2009 with a complete and utter collapse of the US Auto industry and financial services in 2008?



Mourlock saying he had a better idea is almost as hilarious as Romney claiming he saved the auto industry in Ohio!
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  #37  
Old 10 May 12, 16:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Anybody that was investing in GM in 2008 was a vulture....or an idiot.

Thanks for confirming that it all happened on Obama's watch.

30% increase in the number of automotive jobs in an industry pounded by the recession! awesome job Obama!!!!

Mourlock opposed it.

Your calculator must have the bed. Subaru has 3,000 workers in Indiana...they didn't add 30,000 jobs.

Even if they did, how many Subaru's do you think would have been sold in 2009 with a complete and utter collapse of the US Auto industry and financial services in 2008?
Mourdock opposed Obama's theft of ~$5 million from retired Indiana State Police officers and redistribution of those assets to the UAW.
  #38  
Old 10 May 12, 16:10
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Gee he only spent 36 years in the Senate. That's about 24 years more than he should have.
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  #39  
Old 10 May 12, 16:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Oh...and your new super hero was wrong.

When Obama took office Indiana had 77,000 automotive jobs and today they have 100,000 working in that same industry. These are direct jobs and do not include spin-off....so at a minimum Indiana's automotive industry has improved by at least 30% since 2009.

I have no clue what "serious mistake" Mourlock thinks occurred...except his own.
This is funny. The BLS data don't support your post or the news article from which it was probably sourced.

The BLS show that there were 76,853 motor vehicle manufacturing jobs in Indiana at the end of 2009.
NAICS 3361 Motor vehicle manufacturing: 12,712
NAICS 3362 Motor vehicle body and trailer manufacturing: 20,141
NAICS 3363 Motor vehicle parts manufacturing: 44,000
2009 Total: 76,853
At the end of 2010, the total number of motor vehicle manufacturing jobs had only risen to 84,375.
NAICS 3361 Motor vehicle manufacturing: 13,501
NAICS 3362 Motor vehicle body and trailer manufacturing: 24,438
NAICS 3363 Motor vehicle parts manufacturing: 46,436
2010 Total: 84,375
There are no more recent BLS data than EOY 2010. The article was from October 2010. Either the 100,400 figure was wrong or ~16,000 autoworkers lost their jobs in Indiana from August through December 2010.
  #40  
Old 10 May 12, 17:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Mourdock opposed Obama's theft of ~$5 million from retired Indiana State Police officers and redistribution of those assets to the UAW.
Doc,

I noticed you are extremely selective in your choice of creditor! Is that because you saw the folly of arguing that JP Morgan and the Bank of America were against bailouts....when they received them themselves? While I have little doubt that Righties would argue that Wall Street should be paid before the healthcare fund of retired Auto workers...but I guess you are not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.


Chrysler and GM creditors were mostly Wall Street and pension funds.

They were 100% free to reject the $0.28 offer and pay to liquidate both those companies themselves but they didn't, did they? Why not? Well, if they are as smart as they'd like to think they are, they knew that they'd come out in a worse position.

The Police Union should fire the Managers just for investing in Chrysler in the first place!

They were vultures or morons....if the Indiana State Police Officers Pension thought that Chrysler was going to be able to restructure and retain $1 on the $1 they were smoking crack.

They knew $0.28 was the best offer...or they were stupid to accept it.

Mourlock thinking his plan was a better plan is pure fantasy. If Chrysler wasn't able to restructure viably...there would be NO Chrysler today. Thanks Tea Party!
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  #41  
Old 10 May 12, 17:04
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Lugar became a RINO. The voters became fed up and tossed him out at the primary level.

It is somewhat similar to that convicted criminal getting 40% of the vote in the primary in West Virginia, a coal producing state where Obama has alienated the United Mine Workers and all hard core Democrats that work in the coal industry.
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  #42  
Old 10 May 12, 17:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Doc,

I noticed you are extremely selective in your choice of creditor! Is that because you saw the folly of arguing that JP Morgan and the Bank of America were against bailouts....when they received them themselves? While I have little doubt that Righties would argue that Wall Street should be paid before the healthcare fund of retired Auto workers...but I guess you are not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.


Chrysler and GM creditors were mostly Wall Street and pension funds.

They were 100% free to reject the $0.28 offer and pay to liquidate both those companies themselves but they didn't, did they? Why not? Well, if they are as smart as they'd like to think they are, they knew that they'd come out in a worse position.

The Police Union should fire the Managers just for investing in Chrysler in the first place!

They were vultures or morons....if the Indiana State Police Officers Pension thought that Chrysler was going to be able to restructure and retain $1 on the $1 they were smoking crack.

They knew $0.28 was the best offer...or they were stupid to accept it.

Mourlock thinking his plan was a better plan is pure fantasy. If Chrysler wasn't able to restructure viably...there would be NO Chrysler today. Thanks Tea Party!
There is no longer a Saturn brand.
Plymouth was eliminated as a brand as well. Same with Hummer. I guess that restructuring worked out reall well for those workers. All hail Obama the worker's hero.
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  #43  
Old 10 May 12, 17:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Doc,

I noticed you are extremely selective in your choice of creditor! Is that because you saw the folly of arguing that JP Morgan and the Bank of America were against bailouts....when they received them themselves?

While I have little doubt that Righties would argue that Wall Street should be paid before the healthcare fund of retired Auto workers...but I guess you are not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.


Chrysler and GM creditors were mostly Wall Street and pension funds.

They were 100% free to reject the $0.28 offer and pay to liquidate both those companies themselves but they didn't, did they? Why not? Well, if they are as smart as they'd like to think they are, they knew that they'd come out in a worse position.

The Police Union should fire the Managers just for investing in Chrysler in the first place!

They were vultures or morons....if the Indiana State Police Officers Pension thought that Chrysler was going to be able to restructure and retain $1 on the $1 they were smoking crack.

They knew $0.28 was the best offer...or they were stupid to accept it.

Mourlock thinking his plan was a better plan is pure fantasy. If Chrysler wasn't able to restructure viably...there would be NO Chrysler today. Thanks Tea Party!

Nonsense… Chrysler’s plants, equipment and inventory would not have simply vanished. Their product lines for which there was demand, would have been acquired by other automakers. Jeep has been around for ~70 years. It’s outlived several parent companies. Jeep, Dodge Ram trucks and several other lines would have been picked up by other companies.

Bankruptcy law puts *secured* creditors at the front of the line.

GM had very little secured debt. GM's secured creditors were paid in full. It was GM's unsecured bondholders who got screwed. They got about 5 cent on the dollar.

Most of Chrysler's debt was secured. Their secured creditors were sent to the back of the line, behind the UAW (whose claims were unsecured). The UAW got ~55 cents on the dollar. The secured bondholders got ~29 cents on the dollar. Most of Chrysler's secured debt was held by financial institutions which had been effectively, if only temporarily, nationalized by TARP. This left them in no position to put up a fight. A few hedge funds objected, but they were bullied into submission. Indiana's State Treasurer refused to be bullied. A Democrat Federal bankruptcy judge in New York City ignored the law and past precedent when he sided with the US gov't. The Second Circuit in New York City upheld the lower court. SCOTUS refused to intervene. Six months after the deal was closed with Fiat, SCOTUS vacated the Second Circuit ruling, erasing it as a precedent.

The bankruptcy judge panicked. Second Circuit panicked and SCOTUS panicked... Just like Congress and the Bush Administration Panicked in late 2008. Fortunately, SCOTUS went back and erased this deviation from the rule of law as a legal precedent.
  #44  
Old 10 May 12, 17:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Nonsense… Chrysler’s plants, equipment and inventory would not have simply vanished.
Exactly! The Creditors were 100% free to reject the $0.29 on the dollar offer and sell them themselves...but they didn't did they?

If you are arguing that if they'd sold the assets themselves they'd have been in a better position then $0.29 then that is not the Governments fault....that's their own fault.

Quote:
Their product lines for which there was demand, would have been acquired by other automakers. Jeep has been around for ~70 years. It’s outlived several parent companies. Jeep, Dodge Ram trucks and several other lines would have been picked up by other companies.
You'd like your minions to believe that buyers were lining up and slobbering over Chryslers assets, however, that would be a complete and utter crock o' .

Chrysler had a fire sale in Feb 2009...offer us whatever you want for whatever....nobody submitted a single offer let alone bought.

You'd also like them to think that the bankrupcy could be "managed", as Romney likes to call it, however GM and Chrysler required at least $81 BILLION to turn it around. GE had to sell $5 billion to Buffett just to make payroll and you think banks were lining up to give GM and Chrysler $81 BILLION dollars? Pure wackjobbery and not based on a smidgin of reality.

GM and Chrysler looked for every out to bankrupcy and couldn't find a person or penny to help them....that's why the governments had to step in.

That's the fact jack..and what Romney, Mourlock, and you are saying is pure unadulterated crackery!

Quote:
Bankruptcy law puts *secured* creditors at the front of the line.
Doc, they accepted the best offer they could get....NOTHING preventing the secured creditors from liquidating Chrysler themselves. Well....nothing other then the lack of buyers!!

Quote:
GM had very little secured debt. GM's secured creditors were paid in full. It was GM's unsecured bondholders who got screwed. They got about 5 cent on the dollar.
I've known that for years...GM's creditors SUPPORTED the deal.


Quote:
The UAW got ~55 cents on the dollar. The secured bondholders got ~29 cents on the dollar.
The UAW agreed to take on the healthcare liability, including future liability, for 500,000 retired auto workers. Nothing prevented the Secured Creditors from doing the same...except themselves.



Romney = I would have done nothing

Bush = I'd do it again.
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Last edited by Crash; 10 May 12 at 17:56..
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Old 10 May 12, 18:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Exactly! The Creditors were 100% free to reject the $0.29 on the dollar offer and sell them themselves...but they didn't did they?

If you are arguing that if they'd sold the assets themselves they'd have been in a better position then $0.29 then that is not the Governments fault....that's their own fault.

You'd like your minions to believe that buyers were lining up and slobbering over Chryslers assets, however, that would be a complete and utter crock o' .

Chrysler had a fire sale in Feb 2009...offer us whatever you want for whatever....nobody submitted a single offer let alone bought.

You'd also like them to think that the bankrupcy could be "managed", as Romney likes to call it, however GM and Chrysler required at least $81 BILLION to turn it around. GE had to sell $5 billion to Buffett just to make payroll and you think banks were lining up to give GM and Chrysler $81 BILLION dollars? Pure wackjobbery and not based on a smidgin of reality.

GM and Chrysler looked for every out to bankrupcy and couldn't find a person or penny to help them....that's why the governments had to step in.

That's the fact jack..and what Romney, Mourlock, and you are saying is pure unadulterated crackery!

Doc, they accepted the best offer they could get....NOTHING preventing the secured creditors from liquidating Chrysler themselves. Well....nothing other then the lack of buyers!!

I've known that for years...GM's creditors SUPPORTED the deal.


The UAW agreed to take on the healthcare liability, including future liability, for 500,000 retired auto workers. Nothing prevented the Secured Creditors from doing the same...except themselves.



Romney = I would have done nothing

Bush = I'd do it again.
Abject nonsense.

The Chrysler bondholders were forced to take the deal by the bankruptcy judge.

Both Chrysler and GM had more than sufficient cash flow from ongoing operations to remain going concerns throughout a normal bankruptcy process. They simply lacked the means to maintain operations and service debt and other long-term obligations. A proper bankruptcy would have shielded them from their creditors while a just process transpired...
Quote:
Unafraid In Greenwich Connecticut

Clifford S. Asness
Managing and Founding Principal
AQR Capital Management, LLC

The President has just harshly castigated hedge fund managers for being unwilling to take his administration’s bid for their Chrysler bonds. He called them “speculators” who were “refusing to sacrifice like everyone else” and who wanted “to hold out for the prospect of an unjustified taxpayer-funded bailout.”

The responses of hedge fund managers have been, appropriately, outrage, but generally have been anonymous for fear of going on the record against a powerful President (an exception, though still in the form of a “group letter,” was the superb note from “The Committee of Chrysler Non-TARP Lenders,” some of the points of which I echo here, and a relatively few firms, like Oppenheimer, that have publicly defended themselves). Furthermore, one by one the managers and banks are said to be caving to the President’s wishes out of justifiable fear.

[...]

Bankruptcy court is about figuring out how to most fairly divvy up the remaining assets based on who is owed what and whose contracts come first.

The process already has built-in partial protections for employees and pensions, and can set lenders’ contracts aside in order to help the company survive, all of which are the rules of the game lenders know before they lend. But, without this recovery process nobody would lend to risky borrowers. Essentially, lenders accept less than shareholders (means bonds return less than stocks) in good times only because they get more than shareholders in bad times.

The above is how it works in America, or how it’s supposed to work. The President and his team sought to avoid having Chrysler go through this process, proposing their own plan for reorganizing the company and partially paying off Chrysler’s creditors. Some bondholders thought this plan unfair. Specifically, they thought it unfairly favored the United Auto Workers, and unfairly paid bondholders less than they would get in bankruptcy court. So, they said no to the plan and decided, as is their right, to take their chances in the bankruptcy process.

[...]

The President’s attempted diktat takes money from bondholders and gives it to a labor union that delivers money and votes for him. Why is he not calling on his party to “sacrifice” some campaign contributions, and votes, for the greater good? Shaking down lenders for the benefit of political donors is recycled corruption and abuse of power.

Let’s also mention only in passing the irony of this same President begging hedge funds to borrow more to purchase other troubled securities. That he expects them to do so when he has already shown what happens if they ask for their money to be repaid fairly would be amusing if not so dangerous.

[...]

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