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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Europe

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Europe Issues of modern Europe.

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  #1  
Old 14 Dec 11, 23:08
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Desperation/starvation in Greece

First, the suicide rate-

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...061694524.html

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/2324...ng-eu-debt.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...-suicide-crime

That ordinary Greeks, among Europe's lowest wage earners before the crisis erupted, are being stretched to breaking point is too obvious to ignore. When austerity was first introduced, after the newly elected socialist government discovered the budget deficit to be three times higher than the outgoing conservatives claimed, families took the blow by reining in spending and tucking into savings.

Greeks are even turning to the past, WW2 to be exact. Books about starvation recipes are selling, and being used.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/gree...e-bad-economy/


Historian and high school teacher Eleni Nikolaidou spent 18 months compiling recipes and survival tips – combing through more than 6,000 scanned newspaper clippings from the 1941-44 Nazi rule to produce her book. “Starvation Recipes” was released this year and is on its second print run.


Harsh stuff.
Is this the beginning of the end for the EU, or perhaps the Global economy?

You can't just ignore all those diverse sources, this is very much the real thing and it is happening now.
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  #2  
Old 15 Dec 11, 03:39
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You're right it is happening. And not in some third world country but in mainland Europe, and it's not just Greece either And what's their masterplan to to solve the crisis - more austerity.

There is going to be revolution in Europe before long, and it's not going to be pretty.
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Old 15 Dec 11, 04:04
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When austerity was first introduced, after the newly elected socialist government discovered the budget deficit to be three times higher than the outgoing conservatives claimed
These fellows should prosecuted and jailed, if not dragged through the streets by the feet.
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Old 15 Dec 11, 04:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuck's Luck View Post
You're right it is happening. And not in some third world country but in mainland Europe, and it's not just Greece either And what's their masterplan to to solve the crisis - more austerity.

There is going to be revolution in Europe before long, and it's not going to be pretty.
Yes I've heard about this too. Its a tragedy and a disgrace. Greek politicians (and others) really put the boat out on corruption on that one. The architects of the Euro are immoral who went for power rather than economic sense. Hopefully history will condemn them. In the meantime they'll blame David Cameron.


Greece and the others must be able to decouple and then devalue. That wont be pleasnt for sure but it will allow them to get some kid of competitive edge to their businesses and claw their way back. I wish you all luck I really do. This makes me so sad. I frankly wish us all luck, we're going to need it.

Last edited by copenhagen; 15 Dec 11 at 05:05..
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Old 15 Dec 11, 13:55
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Self Immolation?! Jesus. And lots of despair elswhere. This could really blow. So sad.
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Old 15 Dec 11, 14:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuck's Luck View Post
You're right it is happening. And not in some third world country but in mainland Europe, and it's not just Greece either And what's their masterplan to to solve the crisis - more austerity.

There is going to be revolution in Europe before long, and it's not going to be pretty.
Not 3 rd world but also not 1 st world. A 2 nd world country at best trying to live on the glory or it's past history. The past doesn't feed hungry people.
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Old 15 Dec 11, 22:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Greece and the others must be able to decouple and then devalue..
I have never heard that Greece is seriously considering that move... but have they?

Would they be allowed to?
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Old 15 Dec 11, 23:21
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how much longer can this mess possibly be propped up? seems like a big tumble is coming for that whole part of the world. all the kings horses and all the kings men could not put humpty together again
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Old 16 Dec 11, 04:25
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how much longer can this mess possibly be propped up? seems like a big tumble is coming for that whole part of the world. all the kings horses and all the kings men could not put humpty together again
Come on to the Euro thread and see how irrational Euro supporters are and blinkered by dogma. Then multiply that a hundred times to Eurocrats and poltical leaders and you'll se they 'll try and keep this mess going.
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Old 16 Dec 11, 05:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
From that article:

Quote:
Two years into Greece's debt crisis, its citizens are reeling from austerity measures imposed to prevent a government debt default that could cause havoc throughout Europe. The economic pain is the price Greece and Europe are paying to defend the euro, the centerpiece of 60 years of efforts to unite the Continent.
What a load of

The economic pain is the price of decades of government mismanagement and of a larger structural crisis.

Harsher measures have been taken in Romania and we're not part of the Euro Zone. The Euro may be a factor in the problem but it is not the cause. But I bet the Greek politicians that failed so bad would love to make it the scapegoat.
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Old 16 Dec 11, 05:15
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
From that article:



What a load of

The economic pain is the price of decades of government mismanagement and of a larger structural crisis.

Harsher measures have been taken in Romania and we're not part of the Euro Zone. The Euro may be a factor in the problem but it is not the cause. But I bet the Greek politicians that failed so bad would love to make it the scapegoat.
Witout the Euro, The Greek government could not have gotten themselves into such trouble. You are correct about political mismamanagement but the mismanagement of the Euros structure is at the very heart of why this crisis is so much more acute than it normaly otherwise would be. The PIIGS countries do not have the fiscal levers with which to alleviate their pain.
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Old 16 Dec 11, 05:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
From that article:



What a load of

The economic pain is the price of decades of government mismanagement and of a larger structural crisis.

Harsher measures have been taken in Romania and we're not part of the Euro Zone. The Euro may be a factor in the problem but it is not the cause. But I bet the Greek politicians that failed so bad would love to make it the scapegoat.
Nothing like denial coupled with a large dose of delusion.

This is your caring utopian attitude to the suffering of the people of Greece is it? It's their own fault and others have got it worse? Not one jot of compassion or sympathy? So that's how your rose tinted statist 'everyone living in peace and harmony' world works does it? You basically don't give a about anyone else as long as the federalist dream stays intact.

They don't need to make the Euro a scapegoat. The evidence for that is overwhelming - but if a 500 page treatise from the world's greatest minds was placed in front of you - you would deny it. There is some culpability on the part of Greek politicians - we all know that - but that is nowhere near the whole story, but you refuse to see it and will always refuse to see it.
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Last edited by Tuck's Luck; 16 Dec 11 at 05:56..
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Old 16 Dec 11, 05:39
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Originally Posted by Tuck's Luck View Post
Nothing like denial coupled with a large dose of delusion.

This is your caring Socialist utopian attitude to the suffering of the people of Greece is it? It's their own fault and others have got it worse? Not one jot of compassion or sympathy? So that's how your rose tinted statist 'everyone living in peace and harmony' world works does it? You basically don't give a about anyone else as long as the federalist dream stays intact.

They don't need to make the Euro a scapegoat. The evidence for that is overwhelming - but if a 500 page treatise from the world's greatest minds was placed in front of you - you would deny it. There is some culpability on the part of Greek politicians - we all know that - but that is nowhere near the whole story, but you refuse to see it and will always refuse to see it.
I'm not a socialist.

Secondly, you seem unaware that this isn't about the Euro, it's about Greece's deficits, debt and structural problems. This isn't the first crisis that plagues Greece, you can go back to the 19th century and you'll find debt-related crises in Greece. The only thing the Euro is doing is preventing Greece's fail-politicians to resort to currency manipulation to try to clean some of the mess they created. But even if they did that, they'd still have to adopt austerity measures and the Greeks' living standards would still have to drop.

And no, what I meant is not that others have it worse (although that is true and you don't see us rioting every other day) but that austerity measures and deficit-correction measures are also adopted in countries that don't have the Euro as currency.
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Old 16 Dec 11, 05:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Witout the Euro, The Greek government could not have gotten themselves into such trouble.
Why not? Do you think Greece's problems are just 12 years in the making?

Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
You are correct about political mismamanagement but the mismanagement of the Euros structure is at the very heart of why this crisis is so much more acute than it normaly otherwise would be.
That problem stems from the fact that you have a confederacy using a common currency. The issue is being addressed.


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The PIIGS countries do not have the fiscal levers with which to alleviate their pain.
I think you mean monetary, not fiscal.
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Old 16 Dec 11, 05:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
I'm not a socialist.

Secondly, you seem unaware that this isn't about the Euro, it's about Greece's deficits, debt and structural problems. This isn't the first crisis that plagues Greece, you can go back to the 19th century and you'll find debt-related crises in Greece. The only thing the Euro is doing is preventing Greece's fail-politicians to resort to currency manipulation to try to clean some of the mess they created. But even if they did that, they'd still have to adopt austerity measures and the Greeks' living standards would still have to drop.

And no, what I meant is not that others have it worse (although that is true and you don't see us rioting every other day) but that austerity measures and deficit-correction measures are also adopted in countries that don't have the Euro as currency.
If it wasn't for the Euros moral hazard, Greece would not have been able to run up the kind of debts they have in the first place. They were effectively given Germanys credit card. I fail to see why this is so hard to understand.
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