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Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

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  #31  
Old 11 Jul 10, 01:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipser View Post
My current guestimates are:

Battalion staff: 20 men

Brigade staff: 50 men

Division staff: 100 men

Is that reasonable ballpark?
Again, I'm confused, are we talking about the complete company or just the staff?

'cause though I've never been too close to a division or a bde. staff, I seriously doubt they are that big, if we're talking 20 in battalion then maybe 30 in bde. and 40 in division and that's being generous.

But these are my guesstimate, I could be completely off, but one thing I'm extremity uncomfortable posting are orders of battle that are relevant for today, so I won't move it to the next level.

Quote:
I'm trying to think of some halfway position between the two or some penatly that a brigade might pay for commanding on the move vs. setting up.
I'd say commanding on the move should positively effect moral and negatively effect command and control and vice versa.
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  #32  
Old 11 Jul 10, 01:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
Again, I'm confused, are we talking about the complete company or just the staff?
Yeah, just the staff. (That is, HQ minus all men in combat units, e.g. HQ mortar platoon, and minus supply and maintenance truck drivers.)

Quote:
'cause though I've never been too close to a division or a bde. staff, I seriously doubt they are that big, if we're talking 20 in battalion then maybe 30 in bde. and 40 in division and that's being generous.
I'll take those numbers. Thanks.

Quote:
But these are my guesstimate, I could be completely off, but one thing I'm extremity uncomfortable posting are orders of battle that are relevant for today, so I won't move it to the next level.
If your guess is based on anything other than a numeric progress then it's a better guess than mine.

Quote:
I'd say commanding on the move should positively effect moral and negatively effect command and control and vice versa.
Very interesting! I'll think about that. The challenge is that the penalty for loss of command and control is lower morale so I may need to rethink that. I could, instead, limit the divergence of subordinate activities. For example, if the bde hq is on the move then all subordinates must have the same order such as overwatch or bound whereas if it is dismounted then subordinates can have different orders.
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  #33  
Old 11 Jul 10, 02:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipser View Post
Very interesting! I'll think about that. The challenge is that the penalty for loss of command and control is lower morale so I may need to rethink that. I could, instead, limit the divergence of subordinate activities. For example, if the bde hq is on the move then all subordinates must have the same order such as overwatch or bound whereas if it is dismounted then subordinates can have different orders.
Then you'd be taking away all their initiative and most of their combat effectiveness.

How about trying to model it with an extra "fog of war" if the HQ is on the move?

Perhaps less fire support available?

Reducing subordinate units' ability to assist one another?
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  #34  
Old 11 Jul 10, 12:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
Then you'd be taking away all their initiative and most of their combat effectiveness....
New thread:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum....php?p=1536139
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  #35  
Old 14 Jul 10, 20:09
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Let me chime in here about the Israeli OOB. It was very flexible with very little set TO&E. Most armored brigades had 3 tank battalions each with 3 tank companies. Some tank battalions had 2 tank companies, 1 armored infantry. Others, like the 460th Armored Brigade (training) and the tank battalions in the Mechanized brigades, had 4 companies.

Basically, its not cut and dry.

As for the Egyptian and Syrian OOB/TO&E's, there's been no gold standard, a lot can be interpreted from available sources, but I've yet to find a clear, concise, and accurate OOB.

That Osprey link that someone pointed to is suspect. The OOB provided is very weak and based on old research. For the best Arab information, you need to learn to read Arabic.
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  #36  
Old 15 Jul 10, 00:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunnigan View Post
Let me chime in here about the Israeli OOB. It was very flexible with very little set TO&E. Most armored brigades had 3 tank battalions each with 3 tank companies. Some tank battalions had 2 tank companies, 1 armored infantry. Others, like the 460th Armored Brigade (training) and the tank battalions in the Mechanized brigades, had 4 companies.

Basically, its not cut and dry.

As for the Egyptian and Syrian OOB/TO&E's, there's been no gold standard, a lot can be interpreted from available sources, but I've yet to find a clear, concise, and accurate OOB.

That Osprey link that someone pointed to is suspect. The OOB provided is very weak and based on old research. For the best Arab information, you need to learn to read Arabic.
I'm less concerned with accurately portraying the specific differences among Israeli units. I will be content to capture the typical or preponderant organization. I'm really pretty happy with them now after Golani's help, except for the HQ companies which are complete guesses.

I'm less worried about the Arabs since they followed the Soviet model but, there again, I would be content to merely capture the typical organizations, especially since I don't habla Arabic.
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  #37  
Old 15 Jul 10, 04:47
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That Arab OB was actually based on material from Arab sources by Colonel Trevor N. Dupoy, Elusive Victory: The Arab-Israeli Wars, 1947-1974.

Another suggestion is "No Victor, No Vanquished" by Edgar O'Ballance.

Also, you may be able pluck a few details out of "The Crossing of the Suez Canal" by Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Sad al-Shazli. (english translation available) URL:

http://egyptianchronicles.freewebsit...ingFihris.html

Other sources: "Duel for the Golan" by Jerry Asher and Eric Hammel.

"Heroes of the 19th Division, extraordinary fighters" by Maj. Gen. Yussif Afifi. (arabic)
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  #38  
Old 15 Jul 10, 10:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by علامت پیروز View Post
That Arab OB was actually based on material from Arab sources by Colonel Trevor N. Dupoy, Elusive Victory: The Arab-Israeli Wars, 1947-1974. Another suggestion is "No Victor, No Vanquished" by Edgar O'Ballance.
I do have that book, it is one of several excellent high level accounts of the war. Unfortunately, it doesn't provide the kind of organizatoinal detail I'm looking for.

Quote:
Also, you may be able pluck a few details out of "The Crossing of the Suez Canal" by Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Sad al-Shazli. (english translation available) URL:
That looks excellent, thank you. But at first glance it only provides some gross numbers of various weapons. I will read it thoroughly, though.

Quote:
Other sources: "Duel for the Golan" by Jerry Asher and Eric Hammel.
Another excellent book, but like most, only provides a general description of the forces.

Quote:
"Heroes of the 19th Division, extraordinary fighters" by Maj. Gen. Yussif Afifi. (arabic)
I hadn't seen this before. When I search for the title on Google the only result I get is this page(!). But a division level history would be much more likely to provide the detail I'm seeking. Do you have this book?
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  #39  
Old 15 Jul 10, 10:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipser View Post
Another excellent book, but like most, only provides a general description of the forces.


I hadn't seen this before. When I search for the title on Google the only result I get is this page(!). But a division level history would be much more likely to provide the detail I'm seeking. Do you have this book?

It only comes up in the google search because it's in Arabic. I have the book and had to use google translator to translate parts of it for me.

Don't be so sure that the Arab forces used soviet to&e's exactly. They had a number of slight differences, especially for the egyptians as they customized their ores o face the Israeli armor forces.
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  #40  
Old 15 Jul 10, 11:34
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Ipser, I can send you what have for the Israeli oob and a writeup for the Arab ones. If your email isn't in your profile then can you send me a pm with it?
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  #41  
Old 15 Jul 10, 13:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunnigan View Post
It only comes up in the google search because it's in Arabic. I have the book and had to use google translator to translate parts of it for me.
I'd be very interested in seeing that.

Quote:
Don't be so sure that the Arab forces used soviet to&e's exactly. They had a number of slight differences, especially for the egyptians as they customized their ores o face the Israeli armor forces.
True, I was really thinking relative to the Israelis. And, to be honest, I'm not 100% confident in my Soviet TOEs anyway as they came from other wargames with some miscellaneous confirmations from more reliable sources.

With the Egyptians we have the added problem, as you note, that they reorganized for the crossing, e.g. concentrating all the man-portable anti-tank weapons in the first wave.
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  #42  
Old 16 Jul 10, 11:26
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Oh, one incredible source for Egyptian information is the book "The Egyptian Strategy for the Yom Kippur War" by Dani Asher. Asher was in Israeli intelligence and this book was written based on a lot of captured Egyptian documents from the war. Definitely a book to pick up. As far as I can tell, this book was originally written in Hebrew and was recently translated into English. It looks like Dani Asher has a number of other great books but they are all still in Hebrew.
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  #43  
Old 29 Nov 10, 18:34
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I've been spending a lot of time recently on the Suez 73 module and have some questions.

Here are the current OOBs:

Egypt

Israel

Note that you can click on the units to drill down to see components down to the platoon level. These are, of course, regularized for game play but I'd like them to be as accurate as possible.

Also note that the tank brigade that was attached is represented as part of the infantry division.

The sources I have found are conflicting on a few points so let me pose some questions:

1) Were the BMPs organic to the infantry divisions or were they attached? '

2) Did the infantry divsions have any BTR (50 or 60) equipped infantry companies?

3) Did the infantry companies that were neither BMP or BTR equipped have organic trucks or were there truck companies or battalions attached at a higher level and shared when the infantry needed to be moved?

4) How were the leg Sagger ATGM teams organized? (One source says they are in the anti-tank company of the battalion, another says in a single battalion attached to the division). The Soviets had four teams in each non BMP battalion.

5) What did the engineering battalion of the infantry division look like? I'm assuming that each infantry division can construct two bridges across the Suez.
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